{"id":25822,"title":"Oral Argument - December 01, 2025","media_file":[{"id":83207,"mime":"audio\/mpeg","size":24160551,"href":"https:\/\/s3.amazonaws.com\/oyez.case-media.mp3\/case_data\/2025\/24-171\/24-171_20251201-argument.delivery.mp3"}],"transcript":{"title":"COX COMMUNICATIONS, INC., ET AL., Petitioners, v. SONY MUSIC ENTERTAINMENT, ET AL., Respondents","duration":null,"sections":[{"start":0.015,"stop":2400.7549999,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"turns":[{"start":0.015,"stop":8.485,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":0.015,"stop":7.37,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" We will hear argument first this morning in Case 24-171, Cox Communications versus Sony Music Entertainment."},{"start":7.37,"stop":8.485,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Mr. Rosenkranz."}]},{"start":8.485,"stop":128.345,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":8.485,"stop":27.56,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court:  The Fourth Circuit held that a provider of basic communications infrastructure  to millions of homes and businesses can be held liable because it did not kick enough accused infringers off the Internet."},{"start":27.56,"stop":33.97,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"No notion of tort  or copyright law ever conceived can support that theory."},{"start":33.97,"stop":68.685,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"This Court explicitly rejected the theory in Twitter, where it said, \u0022Plaintiffs have identified no duty that would require communication-providing services to terminate customers after discovering that the customers were using the service for illegal ends.\u0022  This  Court said in Grokster that liability cannot be predicated on \u0022mere failure to take affirmative steps to prevent infringement.\u0022  Reaffirming those basic principles resolves this case."},{"start":68.685,"stop":80.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"No case has suggested that  knowledge alone can create the necessary culpability to -- to find someone liable for infringement."},{"start":80.01,"stop":86.385,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The case  -- the consequences of Plaintiffs\u0027 position are cataclysmic."},{"start":86.385,"stop":103.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"There is no sure-fire way for an ISP to avoid liability, and the only way it can is to cut off the Internet not just for the accused infringer but for anyone else who happens to use the same connection."},{"start":103.66,"stop":107.91,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That could be entire towns, universities, or hospitals."},{"start":107.91,"stop":123.77,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Turning Internet providers into Internet police for all torts perpetrated on  the Internet will wreak havoc with the essential medium through which modern public engages in commerce and speech."},{"start":123.77,"stop":125.855,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"This Court should reverse."},{"start":125.855,"stop":128.345,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I welcome the Court\u0027s questions."}]},{"start":128.345,"stop":136.4,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15100,"name":"Clarence Thomas","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/clarence_thomas","view_count":0,"last_name":"Thomas","roles":[{"id":2744,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":688194000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George H. W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2744"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32680,"mime":"image\/png","size":49064,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/clarence_thomas\/clarence_thomas.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":12518,"identifier":"clarence_thomas"},"text_blocks":[{"start":128.345,"stop":136.4,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" How far do you go with Twitter?  We were dealing with a totally different matter in Twitter than we have here."}]},{"start":136.4,"stop":143.9,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":136.4,"stop":143.9,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, Your Honor, the  -- the question of how far one goes with Twitter, when you think about the different --"}]},{"start":143.9,"stop":145.805,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15100,"name":"Clarence Thomas","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/clarence_thomas","view_count":0,"last_name":"Thomas","roles":[{"id":2744,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":688194000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George H. W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2744"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32680,"mime":"image\/png","size":49064,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/clarence_thomas\/clarence_thomas.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":12518,"identifier":"clarence_thomas"},"text_blocks":[{"start":143.9,"stop":145.805,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" In the sense how does it apply here?"}]},{"start":145.805,"stop":211.26,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":145.805,"stop":146.385,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Oh."},{"start":146.385,"stop":151.81,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So -- so Twitter held several things that are -- that are fully applicable here."},{"start":151.81,"stop":172.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The first is that  contributory liability requires malfeasance with the purpose of fostering the bad act, that there\u0027s no liability for passive non-feasance, and there\u0027s -- there\u0027s no liability for sales  to the general public on the same terms regardless of any eventual use."},{"start":172.39,"stop":174.47,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Twitter is  -- we --we are an a fortiori case of Twitter."},{"start":174.47,"stop":180.42,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Twitter at least had those communications on its own server."},{"start":180.42,"stop":182.145,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"They were visible to Twitter."},{"start":182.145,"stop":187.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"What our  --what our customers do is invisible to us in real time."},{"start":187.72,"stop":198.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Now knowing that a particular account  -- account will infringe does not make us an accomplice, which is what\u0027s required for contributory liability."},{"start":198.39,"stop":211.26,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Continuing to supply  the Internet is just not the same as joining with the tortfeasor in \u0022mind and hand\u0022 in the infringement as in something that the ISP wants to bring about."}]},{"start":211.26,"stop":215.935,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15100,"name":"Clarence Thomas","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/clarence_thomas","view_count":0,"last_name":"Thomas","roles":[{"id":2744,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":688194000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George H. W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2744"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32680,"mime":"image\/png","size":49064,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/clarence_thomas\/clarence_thomas.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":12518,"identifier":"clarence_thomas"},"text_blocks":[{"start":211.26,"stop":215.935,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" What  --what is the basis of  --of this contributory liability?"}]},{"start":215.935,"stop":230.89,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":215.935,"stop":230.89,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Your Honor, the basis of contributory liability for copyright, as this Court recognized in Sony, is just sort of  adopting the common law in a world in which the Copyright Act itself does not prescribe secondary  --"}]},{"start":230.89,"stop":241.395,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15100,"name":"Clarence Thomas","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/clarence_thomas","view_count":0,"last_name":"Thomas","roles":[{"id":2744,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":688194000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George H. W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2744"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32680,"mime":"image\/png","size":49064,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/clarence_thomas\/clarence_thomas.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":12518,"identifier":"clarence_thomas"},"text_blocks":[{"start":230.89,"stop":241.395,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So do we do that in a broad adoption of common law, say as we had in Halberstam, or do we  --is it narrower than that?"}]},{"start":241.395,"stop":277.53,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":241.395,"stop":252.375,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, Your Honor, it must be, I would say, the narrowest version of common law that is available precisely because  Congress did not speak directly to it."},{"start":252.375,"stop":277.53,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And so I would say Halberstam merely articulates a way of getting at the ultimate principles that the Copyright Act  --excuse me, that contributory liability is directed at, but Twitter and Smith  \u0026 Wesson apply it to the exact sorts of circumstances here, which is where you\u0027ve got an arm\u0027s-length seller selling to millions and millions of people  --"}]},{"start":277.53,"stop":329.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":277.53,"stop":299.42,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I guess I wonder, Mr. Rosenkranz -- this goes back to Justice Thomas\u0027s first question  -- whether this really is a fortiori from -- from Twitter, meaning Twitter, we spent a lot of time talking about the fact that the -- the companies, Facebook and so forth, didn\u0027t know of any particular conduct that had led to the attack."},{"start":299.42,"stop":306.19,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It wasn\u0027t even clear that the terrorists in Twitter had used those companies to plan the attack."},{"start":306.19,"stop":314.655,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So we  said that there was no real nexus between the companies and the actual communications that created the legal issue."},{"start":314.655,"stop":329.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Now, here, your client has received notice as to particular people doing particular infringements of copyright, and I -- I would think that that\u0027s a step further from Twitter."}]},{"start":329.72,"stop":367.93,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":329.72,"stop":338.13,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, so, Your Honor, it\u0027s  --it\u0027s a step further in one respect and it\u0027s a step in the other direction on the other end of the spectrum."},{"start":338.13,"stop":344.015,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So, on one end of the  causation spectrum, we can\u0027t see in real time what people are doing."},{"start":344.015,"stop":357.56,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That, as I said, distinguishes us from Twitter and makes us more remote. You are right that on the other end of the spectrum, there\u0027s a slightly greater nexus,  but I hasten to add it is still a limited nexus."},{"start":357.56,"stop":367.93,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"When we get pinged about a regional ISP  with tens of thousands of users, we know that somewhere someone in that community has infringed."}]},{"start":367.93,"stop":393.415,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":367.93,"stop":371.04,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That\u0027s true sometimes. It\u0027s not true other times."},{"start":371.04,"stop":386.92,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And it -- it -- it  -- there\u0027s no evidence that it\u0027s true here. In other words, there are plenty of times where you\u0027re getting -- you know, that there\u0027s a link to a specific individual and -- and you know who that individual is."},{"start":386.92,"stop":389.53,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"You would not have to cut off anybody else."},{"start":389.53,"stop":393.415,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And  -- and you know that that individual has infringed."}]},{"start":393.415,"stop":444.16,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":393.415,"stop":395.04,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Your Honor, I beg to differ."},{"start":395.04,"stop":404.14,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"There\u0027s literally not a single place  in this record where a specific individual was identified."},{"start":404.14,"stop":408.48,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"If you  -- let\u0027s take the smallest unit, a household."},{"start":408.48,"stop":410.785,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"You still don\u0027t know who the individual is."},{"start":410.785,"stop":418.49,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I also beg to differ on the first half of what you said, Your Honor, that there\u0027s no evidence that what I\u0027ve described has happened here."},{"start":418.49,"stop":428.945,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Page 11 of our opening brief gives you the  -- the nature of the highest recidivist infringers."},{"start":428.945,"stop":435.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"They are 15 regional ISPs, 10  universities, nine hotels, and so forth."},{"start":435.96,"stop":444.16,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Those are the entities that are most likely to be cut off first because those are the ones that accrue the greatest number of --"}]},{"start":444.16,"stop":444.92,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":444.16,"stop":444.92,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But you\u0027re going --"}]},{"start":444.92,"stop":445,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. 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Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":535.47,"stop":536.83,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So, Your Honor, a couple of things."},{"start":536.83,"stop":547.17,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"First, on the -- on the first point you made, the DMCA does purport to  require termination, and it is the failure to terminate  --"}]},{"start":547.17,"stop":550.43,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":547.17,"stop":550.43,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But there\u0027s 10 steps be  -- at least 10 steps before that."}]},{"start":550.43,"stop":553.07,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":550.43,"stop":553.07,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No, no, I  -- I\u0027m talking about the DMCA, the statute itself."}]},{"start":553.07,"stop":553.54,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":553.07,"stop":553.54,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" The statute."}]},{"start":553.54,"stop":627.63,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":553.54,"stop":554.675,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" The safe harbor."},{"start":554.675,"stop":561.205,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And that was the theory of liability, that we did not terminate people enough."},{"start":561.205,"stop":571.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Plaintiffs in their brief to this Court for the first time  have made the assertion that you will find nowhere in the court of appeals brief that we did nothing."},{"start":571.08,"stop":574.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The notion that Cox did nothing is absurd."},{"start":574.96,"stop":578.245,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I will mention just three facts that are undisputed."},{"start":578.245,"stop":586.17,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"First, Cox invested its own  resources to create the first-of-its-kind anti-infringement program."},{"start":586.17,"stop":588.065,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"There was no precedent for that."},{"start":588.065,"stop":594.74,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Second, under that program, Cox sent out hundreds of warnings a day."},{"start":594.74,"stop":599.03,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"To your point, Your Honor, that we didn\u0027t work with universities, we most certainly did."},{"start":599.03,"stop":615.425,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The first several steps, the 13 steps, are all about contacting them, cutting them off, that is, suspending their accounts, which we did 67 times -- 67,000 times in the course of this period."},{"start":615.425,"stop":625.675,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That\u0027s thousands every month  --month. And, third, the program stopped infringement by 98 percent of the people who were accused of infringement."},{"start":625.675,"stop":627.63,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That is not nothing, Your Honor."}]},{"start":627.63,"stop":628.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. 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Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":628.585,"stop":649.89,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- you -- you say you\u0027re -- you\u0027re comfortable -- or not comfortable, but you  --you don\u0027t like the Ninth Circuit\u0027s test, but then you go on to say  that you\u0027ve already taken a lot of measures and that those have been highly effective and they far exceed any conceivable notion of simple  measures."},{"start":649.89,"stop":660.16,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So why should we be terribly worried about that?  You\u0027re able to comply with it. You don\u0027t  --so what\u0027s wrong with that?  It doesn\u0027t present such a burden to you."},{"start":660.16,"stop":662.13,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"You say you far exceed it."}]},{"start":662.13,"stop":666.85,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":662.13,"stop":666.85,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, so, Your Honor, you\u0027re asking what\u0027s  --what is the problem with the simple measures test?"}]},{"start":666.85,"stop":667.31,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":666.85,"stop":667.31,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Yeah."}]},{"start":667.31,"stop":667.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":667.31,"stop":667.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, so  --"}]},{"start":667.95,"stop":672.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":667.95,"stop":672.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Because you still believe you far exceed whatever conceivable notion of simple measures."}]},{"start":672.79,"stop":675.49,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":672.79,"stop":674.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" We most certain  -- yes, Your Honor."},{"start":674.39,"stop":674.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Sorry."},{"start":674.64,"stop":675.49,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I did not mean to --"}]},{"start":675.49,"stop":676.37,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":675.49,"stop":675.61,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Okay."},{"start":675.61,"stop":676.37,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So what\u0027s wrong with that test?"}]},{"start":676.37,"stop":683.87,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":676.37,"stop":683.87,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So what is wrong with that test is that it does not comply with what this Court has said and the common law has been saying for a hundred years."}]},{"start":683.87,"stop":688.265,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. 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Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":688.265,"stop":693.71,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I\u0027m -- I\u0027m not complaining about the practical impact on us. We easily meet the simple measures test."},{"start":693.71,"stop":703.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I would underscore that plaintiffs have not asked  this Court to apply the simple measures test and have not argued that we could not meet the simple measures test."}]},{"start":703.41,"stop":703.88,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":703.41,"stop":703.51,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Okay."},{"start":703.51,"stop":703.88,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But  -- but they do  --"}]},{"start":703.88,"stop":704.71,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":705.94,"stop":716.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" What incentive would you have to do anything if you won?  If you -- if you win and mere knowledge isn\u0027t enough, why would you bother to send out any notices in the future?  What would your obligation be?"}]},{"start":716.79,"stop":728.52,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":716.79,"stop":724.52,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Your Honor, for the simple reason that Cox is a good corporate citizen that cares a lot about what happens on its system."},{"start":724.52,"stop":728.52,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We do all sorts of things that the  law does not require us to do."}]},{"start":728.52,"stop":738.555,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":728.52,"stop":738.555,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But don\u0027t you do these notices in an effort to get the safe harbor and aren\u0027t you sending these notices to  avoid liability?  You would have no liability risk, right, if you win going forward?"}]},{"start":738.555,"stop":742.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":738.555,"stop":742.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That is correct, but I want to underscore my -- my answer to --"}]},{"start":742.01,"stop":761.515,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":742.01,"stop":742.135,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Whoa."},{"start":742.135,"stop":743.485,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Let me stop you there."},{"start":743.485,"stop":755.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I mean, if -- if purpose is the test, nobody  -- very few bad actors come out and say:  I intended to do something awful. You infer it from circumstances."},{"start":755.08,"stop":761.515,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And a jury could still infer purpose from your knowledge and some other actions, right?"}]},{"start":761.515,"stop":775.16,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":761.515,"stop":763.87,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So -- but, Your Honor, my answer is no."},{"start":763.87,"stop":772.025,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And -- and I agree  with you that the way one conducts this analysis is not to say, oh, purpose is the test."},{"start":772.025,"stop":775.16,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The way one conducts the analysis is to assess --"}]},{"start":775.16,"stop":776.945,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":775.16,"stop":776.945,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So you disagree with the government on that?"}]},{"start":776.945,"stop":781.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":776.945,"stop":781.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No, I don\u0027t think the government is saying that purpose is the standard, but we -- what the government --"}]},{"start":781.46,"stop":785.425,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":781.46,"stop":782.89,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That\u0027s exactly how I read its brief."},{"start":782.89,"stop":785.425,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Perhaps I\u0027m missing something and Mr. Malcolm can help me there."}]},{"start":785.425,"stop":817.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":785.425,"stop":817.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" What  --what the government and we both contend is that there  are acts that can be -- from which one can impute intent, and in the context of a seller,  in particular, a seller of communications technology, this Court has held that -- that -- that unless it is a technology that is incapable of multiple uses, that is, non-infringing uses, you don\u0027t infer intent from what is an --"}]},{"start":817.46,"stop":823.395,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":817.46,"stop":823.395,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" We don\u0027t have to go that far, though, to recognize that the jury instructions here were improper, do we?"}]},{"start":823.395,"stop":838.12,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":823.395,"stop":838.12,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No, you -- you don\u0027t have to go that far to recognize that  --that both the jury instructions here and, in particular, the Ninth Circuit\u0027s holding that  the instructions as applied to this set of facts could -- could sustain liability."}]},{"start":838.12,"stop":887.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":838.12,"stop":845.16,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So let me  -- let me ask you if I\u0027ve got it right, okay, the  narrowest version of your argument, perhaps not everything you want."},{"start":845.16,"stop":849.81,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That the statute doesn\u0027t mention secondary liability, so we should be cautious."},{"start":849.81,"stop":859.185,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And, in fact, in Central Bank of Denver, we refused to infer secondary liability in a statute that had no explicit cause of action. But here we are, Sony did it, so okay."},{"start":859.185,"stop":862,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The  narrowest version of that requires purpose."},{"start":862,"stop":866.745,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And we\u0027ve said that many times, knowledge isn\u0027t enough."},{"start":866.745,"stop":876.22,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"There are various ways  one can infer purpose, such as through inducement or  --or the fact that the thing you\u0027re selling doesn\u0027t have any other lawful use."},{"start":876.22,"stop":878.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"There may be other ways to infer purpose."},{"start":878.65,"stop":882.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And the jury instructions here didn\u0027t contain purpose, just knowledge."},{"start":882.64,"stop":885.135,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So, therefore, reverse."},{"start":885.135,"stop":887.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Anything wrong with that syllogism?"}]},{"start":887.2,"stop":938.37,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":887.2,"stop":889.17,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" There\u0027s nothing wrong with the syllogism."},{"start":889.17,"stop":890.16,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Just one quibble."},{"start":890.16,"stop":892.27,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We\u0027re not challenging the jury instructions."},{"start":892.27,"stop":913.37,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We\u0027re  making a JMOL argument, but, yes, everything else you said I completely agree with, that what the  -- what the Fourth Circuit did was to say that continuing to provide Internet service with the knowledge that someone on that account is likely to infringe again, that that is the culpable act."},{"start":913.37,"stop":916.035,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And that is just absolutely not correct."},{"start":916.035,"stop":920.24,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"This Court rejected that exact theory in Twitter."},{"start":920.24,"stop":925.475,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I would remind the Court to the questions asked earlier about whether Twitter goes that far."},{"start":925.475,"stop":929.26,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"There was knowledge in Twitter  of actual accounts."},{"start":929.26,"stop":938.37,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I understand it was not knowledge of specific acts of terrorism, but  -- but  -- but knowledge was very much a part of that case."}]},{"start":938.37,"stop":944.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":938.37,"stop":944.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So is it your view that selling Internet services can never be called culpable conduct?  Is that the position that you\u0027re taking?"}]},{"start":944.69,"stop":960.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":944.69,"stop":950.15,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Your Honor, the position we\u0027re taking is not that an ISP can never be culpable."},{"start":950.15,"stop":960.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But an ISP can be culpable only if it engages either in clear expression, such as inducement, or in affirmative acts that align itself  --"}]},{"start":960.72,"stop":966.925,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":960.72,"stop":966.925,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" And the affirmative act can\u0027t be continuing to provide Internet services to a known infringer?"}]},{"start":966.925,"stop":971.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":966.925,"stop":971.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That is correct because that is simply another way of packaging the non  --"}]},{"start":971.46,"stop":1010.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":971.46,"stop":971.61,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" All right."},{"start":971.61,"stop":974.84,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Let me give you a hypothetical and you tell me whether or not liability lies."},{"start":974.84,"stop":979.065,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Suppose I come to you and I want to buy your services."},{"start":979.065,"stop":985.185,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I tell you that I as a customer am addicted to infringing on the Internet."},{"start":985.185,"stop":986.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I\u0027ve been sued before."},{"start":986.96,"stop":990.275,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I  know what I\u0027m doing is illegal, but I just keep doing it."},{"start":990.275,"stop":997.49,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And not only that, Cox, based on where I live, is my only option."},{"start":997.49,"stop":1001.36,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"At my new house, it\u0027s the only way that I can get Internet services."},{"start":1001.36,"stop":1010.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"If Cox sells to me knowing all of that, you still say no liability for  -- for secondary liability in that situation?"}]},{"start":1010.23,"stop":1014.49,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1010.23,"stop":1011.74,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That\u0027s correct, Your Honor."},{"start":1011.74,"stop":1014.49,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That\u0027s a difficult hypothetical that pushes the envelope  --"}]},{"start":1014.49,"stop":1015.92,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1014.49,"stop":1015.87,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That\u0027s the point of the hypothetical."},{"start":1015.87,"stop":1015.92,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"(Laughter.)"}]},{"start":1015.92,"stop":1034.255,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1015.92,"stop":1031.035,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Yeah, understood. Let me just underscore the facts you recited are  --are facts that would make it totally plausible and, in fact, would invite the I -- the plaintiffs here to sue that infringer directly."},{"start":1031.035,"stop":1034.255,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"They have recourse in a situation like that."}]},{"start":1034.255,"stop":1035.375,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1034.255,"stop":1035.375,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Can I follow up?"}]},{"start":1035.375,"stop":1036.065,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1035.375,"stop":1036.065,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank -- sure."}]},{"start":1036.065,"stop":1045.765,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1036.065,"stop":1045.765,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I just wanted to say, under those facts, would there be liability under common law, sort of general aiding -and-abetting principles?  Wouldn\u0027t that be enough to sustain liability?"}]},{"start":1045.765,"stop":1066.17,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1045.765,"stop":1054.06,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No, Your Honor. The  -- the reason that it wouldn\u0027t be enough for Cox in this case is exactly the reason that it wouldn\u0027t be enough under the common law."},{"start":1054.06,"stop":1063.345,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The common law also requires a culpable act, not the equivocal act of selling to everyone on equal terms."},{"start":1063.345,"stop":1066.17,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Smith \u0026 Wesson says that, and  Twitter says that too."}]},{"start":1066.17,"stop":1066.545,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1066.17,"stop":1066.545,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you --"}]},{"start":1066.545,"stop":1076.755,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1066.545,"stop":1076.755,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That is an equivocal act that does not align oneself, that does not align the seller with the purpose of promoting infringement."}]},{"start":1076.755,"stop":1080.46999995,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1076.755,"stop":1077.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you, counsel."},{"start":1077.72,"stop":1080.46999995,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Justice Thomas, anything? Justice Alito?"}]},{"start":1080.46999995,"stop":1104.94,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15068,"name":"Samuel A. Alito, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/samuel_a_alito_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Alito","roles":[{"id":2712,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1138687200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2712"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32684,"mime":"image\/png","size":44799,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/samuel_alito_jr\/samuel_alito_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7304,"identifier":"samuel_a_alito_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1080.46999995,"stop":1087.415,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" You have competitors in providing Internet services."},{"start":1087.415,"stop":1104.94,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Would you  dispute the proposition that your client has a financial incentive not to become known as an Internet service provider that is aggressive in terminating service for  -- for infringers?"}]},{"start":1104.94,"stop":1139.15,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1104.94,"stop":1115.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Your Honor, hypothetically, I can imagine that being true,  but the facts of this case are 21 percent of traffic to the other ISPs was infringing."},{"start":1115.64,"stop":1117.425,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We were two-thirds of that."},{"start":1117.425,"stop":1139.15,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So the -- the notion that we had a -- a particularly impressive track record of reducing infringement did  -- did not deter us from -- excuse me -- of reducing infringement did not deter us from  having a program that worked to the point of 98 percent success."}]},{"start":1139.15,"stop":1149.195,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15068,"name":"Samuel A. Alito, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/samuel_a_alito_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Alito","roles":[{"id":2712,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1138687200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2712"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32684,"mime":"image\/png","size":44799,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/samuel_alito_jr\/samuel_alito_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7304,"identifier":"samuel_a_alito_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1139.15,"stop":1149.195,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Is there evidence in the record that you have a financial incentive not to terminate infringers?"}]},{"start":1149.195,"stop":1166.37,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1149.195,"stop":1156.03,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" We -- we have a financial incentive, like any business does, to keep our customers."},{"start":1156.03,"stop":1166.37,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But the Fourth Circuit  found -- and this was a basis for rejecting vicarious liability  -- that we did not have a financial incentive to increase infringement."}]},{"start":1166.37,"stop":1234.99,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15068,"name":"Samuel A. Alito, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/samuel_a_alito_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Alito","roles":[{"id":2712,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1138687200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2712"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32684,"mime":"image\/png","size":44799,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/samuel_alito_jr\/samuel_alito_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7304,"identifier":"samuel_a_alito_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1166.37,"stop":1192.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" If purpose is the test, would you disagree that there can be  circumstances in which a repeated refusal to do anything about infringement by the holder of the single user account could be sufficient to give rise to an inference of purpose?  Suppose that we\u0027re talk --- we\u0027re not talking about a multi-user account."},{"start":1192.23,"stop":1223.675,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We\u0027re talking about an individual user account, and the copyright holder notifies the ISP that this particular account has -- over the course of  six months has violated the copyright 50 times. And the ISP does nothing in response to that notification, and then, after the 50th notice,  it begins to send out just a very tepid warning, what you\u0027re doing is really not very nice."},{"start":1223.675,"stop":1228.3,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But 50 more occur over the course of the next six months."},{"start":1228.3,"stop":1231.27,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"At some point  --and this could go on indefinitely."},{"start":1231.27,"stop":1234.99,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"At some point would there be enough to infer a purpose?"}]},{"start":1234.99,"stop":1316.5,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1234.99,"stop":1255.48,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No, Your Honor, because there could be all sorts of reasons why  an ISP does not want to cut off a customer. And it\u0027s not just a customer who, in your hypothetical, confesses that he\u0027s going to continue infringing."},{"start":1255.48,"stop":1260.85,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I think that -- another way of answering the question is think about the flip side."},{"start":1260.85,"stop":1311.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"In order to capture that fringe case, we  would have to create a world in which ISPs are going after everyone who infringes, including not just that one individual user of which we have no evidence in this record that we ever knew about that one person but the regional ISPs and the hospitals and the universities, because that is a world in which at $150,000 per pop, the ISP has a huge financial incentive to cut off the accused infringer at the word \u0022go.\u0022  I will underscore that  --that in that table on page 11, of the 49 infringers who had more than a hundred notices, only one was a single -unit home."},{"start":1311.41,"stop":1316.5,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Everything else were the sorts of businesses and multi-unit dwellings that I described."}]},{"start":1316.5,"stop":1317.435,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15068,"name":"Samuel A. Alito, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/samuel_a_alito_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Alito","roles":[{"id":2712,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1138687200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2712"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32684,"mime":"image\/png","size":44799,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/samuel_alito_jr\/samuel_alito_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7304,"identifier":"samuel_a_alito_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1316.5,"stop":1317.435,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you."}]},{"start":1317.435,"stop":1319.025,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1317.435,"stop":1319.025,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Justice Sotomayor?"}]},{"start":1319.025,"stop":1333.8,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1319.025,"stop":1333.8,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Your last concession, doesn\u0027t that suggest, even if there is some error here, that you\u0027ve admitted some liability potentially when you say there was one single-person home involved?"}]},{"start":1333.8,"stop":1334.68,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1333.8,"stop":1334.68,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, so two --"}]},{"start":1334.68,"stop":1364.61,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1334.68,"stop":1364.61,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Because that would seem to me the clear example of Justice Jackson\u0027s hypothetical, which is, if I\u0027m a gun dealer and I\u0027m selling to someone who says to  me \u0022I\u0027m going to kill my wife with this gun,\u0022 I think the common law would say you knew what he was going to do with the gun, you joined in. Why isn\u0027t your continuing to provide Internet service the same --"}]},{"start":1364.61,"stop":1366.82,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1364.61,"stop":1366.82,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, so  --so a couple of answers, Your Honor."}]},{"start":1366.82,"stop":1371.195,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1366.82,"stop":1371.195,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- when you know that that particular location is going to continue to infringe?"}]},{"start":1371.195,"stop":1386.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1371.195,"stop":1373.04,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So -- so a couple of answers."},{"start":1373.04,"stop":1377.04,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I  -- I certainly didn\u0027t concede that there would be liability."},{"start":1377.04,"stop":1383.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I said, of the top  recidivists, there was only one single-family home."},{"start":1383.66,"stop":1386.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We still don\u0027t know the identity of  the  --"}]},{"start":1386.08,"stop":1387.295,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1386.08,"stop":1387.295,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Why does that matter?"}]},{"start":1387.295,"stop":1387.94,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1387.295,"stop":1387.94,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Excuse me?"}]},{"start":1387.94,"stop":1409.605,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1387.94,"stop":1409.605,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Meaning, if you know that a particular location and someone in it is committing a crime and you\u0027re supplying to that person and perhaps others, it doesn\u0027t matter what the others are doing, but you know some person in that home is infringing, why aren\u0027t you participating by giving them the tool to infringe?"}]},{"start":1409.605,"stop":1414.48,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1409.605,"stop":1414.48,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, because, Your Honor, it needs to be an act that unequivocally demonstrates  --"}]},{"start":1414.48,"stop":1414.7,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1414.48,"stop":1414.7,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Why?"}]},{"start":1414.7,"stop":1415.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. 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Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1437.8,"stop":1441.195,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Your Honor, I\u0027m not just talking about the Sony case."},{"start":1441.195,"stop":1443.33,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Grokster reiterated the same point, Twitter."},{"start":1443.33,"stop":1453.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"If the  rule was that there -- that -- that the rule is different if there\u0027s an ongoing relationship, then Twitter would have come out differently."},{"start":1453.41,"stop":1458.59,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"By the way, so  -- Direct Sales underscores that point too, and that was 80 years ago."},{"start":1458.59,"stop":1459.86,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That is part of the  --"}]},{"start":1459.86,"stop":1477.275,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1459.86,"stop":1469.175,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That -- what it said was these people were selling something  that they knew this doctor would be using illegally."},{"start":1469.175,"stop":1472.235,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"He would be prescribing  -- or not prescribing."},{"start":1472.235,"stop":1477.275,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"He would be giving away drugs not  in accordance with medical standards."}]},{"start":1477.275,"stop":1477.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1477.275,"stop":1477.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No, Your Honor."}]},{"start":1477.69,"stop":1480.37,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1477.69,"stop":1480.37,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So how is that different from this situation?"}]},{"start":1480.37,"stop":1491.13,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1480.37,"stop":1490.58,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" This Court explained in Smith \u0026 Wesson why it\u0027s different, and that was  -- and it said explicitly it was not just that there were  -- that there was an ongoing relationship."},{"start":1490.58,"stop":1491.13,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"There were on  --"}]},{"start":1491.13,"stop":1503.92,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1491.13,"stop":1502.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No, you\u0027re -- you can\u0027t win on Smith \u0026 Wesson because, in Smith Wesson, the manufacturer sold to dealers, who  in turn sold to individuals, to individual gun stores."},{"start":1502.2,"stop":1503.075,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But all right."},{"start":1503.075,"stop":1503.92,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Thank you, counsel."}]},{"start":1503.92,"stop":1531.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1503.92,"stop":1510.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, can I just answer the question, though?  I\u0027m not citing Swith  Mess  -- Smith  Wesson in answer to your question."},{"start":1510.39,"stop":1514.74,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I\u0027m citing Smith  Wesson for its analysis of Direct Sales."},{"start":1514.74,"stop":1520.98,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And what the Court said in Smith Wesson about Direct Sales was ongoing wasn\u0027t enough."},{"start":1520.98,"stop":1531.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It was the stimulation of further sales and  --and treating that buyer differently from others, that was the key that created culpability."}]},{"start":1531.35,"stop":1532.17,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1531.35,"stop":1532.17,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Justice Kagan?"}]},{"start":1532.17,"stop":1553.435,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1532.17,"stop":1538.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I take it that -- from your answers that it really doesn\u0027t matter whether Cox is a good corporate citizen."},{"start":1538.35,"stop":1552.22,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"You  know, there\u0027s a lot of talk in your brief and in Mr. Clement\u0027s brief, is it a good corporate citizen, is it a bad corporate citizen?  But,  as I understand your argument, it could be the worst corporate citizen of all time and still it doesn\u0027t matter that there would be no liability."},{"start":1552.22,"stop":1553.435,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Is that  --is that right?"}]},{"start":1553.435,"stop":1571.34,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1553.435,"stop":1554.53,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That\u0027s correct."},{"start":1554.53,"stop":1571.34,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But I was making the point earlier about the corporate citizen in response to the question  why would an ISP continue to provide anti-infringement programs if they don\u0027t have to, and I was simply saying --"}]},{"start":1571.34,"stop":1576.04,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1571.34,"stop":1571.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Okay."},{"start":1571.69,"stop":1576.04,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But it\u0027s basically irrelevant to the matter at hand, to the liability rule?"}]},{"start":1576.04,"stop":1582.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1576.04,"stop":1582.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" It is irrelevant, both the invective from Plaintiffs and my protestation  --"}]},{"start":1582.41,"stop":1594.83,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1582.41,"stop":1583.455,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Your crowing."},{"start":1583.455,"stop":1594.83,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And if that\u0027s so, what would the safe harbor provision mean?  It would seem to be, you know, utterly  -- it would seem to do nothing."}]},{"start":1594.83,"stop":1597.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1594.83,"stop":1597.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, so, Your Honor, Congress can  --"}]},{"start":1597.65,"stop":1602.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1597.65,"stop":1602.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But why would anybody care about getting into the safe harbor if there\u0027s no liability in the first place --"}]},{"start":1602.01,"stop":1602.1,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1602.01,"stop":1602.1,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well  --"}]},{"start":1602.1,"stop":1603.27,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1602.1,"stop":1603.27,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- is, I suppose, the question?"}]},{"start":1603.27,"stop":1616.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1603.27,"stop":1603.62,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Right."},{"start":1603.62,"stop":1608.12,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So  -- so Congress can adopt a safe harbor for all sorts of reasons."},{"start":1608.12,"stop":1616.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Here, Congress did it to assure service providers at a point in time at which the law was really unknown."}]},{"start":1616.39,"stop":1637.84,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1616.39,"stop":1623.935,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Right, but  -- right. I  -- I take your point about how Congress may have thought this was a good thing to do because we don\u0027t know what the liability rule is."},{"start":1623.935,"stop":1637.84,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But, once the liability rule becomes what  you think the liability ought to be, do you agree that then the  -- the safe harbor provision is not going to be doing anything at all?"}]},{"start":1637.84,"stop":1646.36,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1637.84,"stop":1646.36,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Twenty-seven years later, the safe harbor provision, by light of this Court\u0027s ruling that came a generation after the  --"}]},{"start":1646.36,"stop":1647.005,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1646.36,"stop":1647.005,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" You agree?"}]},{"start":1647.005,"stop":1648.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1647.005,"stop":1647.67,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Correct."},{"start":1647.67,"stop":1648.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Yes, I agree."}]},{"start":1648.39,"stop":1649.575,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1648.39,"stop":1648.68,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Okay."},{"start":1648.68,"stop":1649.575,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Thank you."}]},{"start":1649.575,"stop":1652.93000005,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1649.575,"stop":1652.93000005,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Justice Gorsuch?  Justice Kavanaugh?"}]},{"start":1652.93000005,"stop":1680.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1652.93000005,"stop":1671.21,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" On the word \u0022purpose,\u0022 I think that\u0027s going to be key and it\u0027s kind of a slippery word in this context. I want to make sure I nail down what you mean in response to Justice Gorsuch about what can be used to show purpose."},{"start":1671.21,"stop":1676.27,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Mere knowledge alone cannot show purpose."},{"start":1676.27,"stop":1680.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Purpose can\u0027t be inferred from mere knowledge is your point, correct?"}]},{"start":1680.45,"stop":1694.6,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1680.45,"stop":1682.98,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That is correct with one caveat."},{"start":1682.98,"stop":1694.6,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It can be shown when it is -- when  --when the only use of the -- of the device is an infringing use."}]},{"start":1694.6,"stop":1697.67,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1694.6,"stop":1697.67,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I\u0027m assuming that there are substantial non-infringing uses."}]},{"start":1697.67,"stop":1697.91,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1697.67,"stop":1697.91,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Correct."}]},{"start":1697.91,"stop":1712.255,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1697.91,"stop":1701.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" And then you go to the next step, which is purpose."},{"start":1701.39,"stop":1703.645,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I want to make sure mere knowledge, not good enough."},{"start":1703.645,"stop":1712.255,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"What is good enough under our precedents in your view, if you could articulate it clearly, what you think is good enough to show purpose?"}]},{"start":1712.255,"stop":1778.36,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1712.255,"stop":1714.36,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So there are two things that are good enough."},{"start":1714.36,"stop":1721.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"One is inducement, which are mainly  --generally words that are directed at encouraging infringement."},{"start":1721.23,"stop":1728.87,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The other is affirmative conduct directed at -- at fostering infringement."},{"start":1728.87,"stop":1753.15,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"For example, if an ISP were to provide an anti-infringement detection buster, you know, something that hides the ISP address from the MarkMonitors of the world that detect  infringement, that would be an affirmative act that\u0027s built into its device that aligns itself as someone who desires for the infringement to occur."},{"start":1753.15,"stop":1770.89,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Another possibility is if the ISP creates a service that is uniquely designed to help individuals take streaming services, the songs off of streaming services, download them, and swap them."},{"start":1770.89,"stop":1778.36,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Those are two -- and they\u0027re classic examples of affirmative conduct that amounts to material contribution."}]},{"start":1778.36,"stop":1782.215,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1778.36,"stop":1779.765,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So that\u0027s affirmative conduct."},{"start":1779.765,"stop":1782.215,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"What are some examples of inducement?"}]},{"start":1782.215,"stop":1788.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1782.215,"stop":1786.755,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Oh, a  --here, let me help you infringe."},{"start":1786.755,"stop":1788.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We have an infringement hotline."}]},{"start":1788.25,"stop":1795.47,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1788.25,"stop":1795.47,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So advertisements or specific pitches that are designed -- this is  -- I don\u0027t want to put words in your mouth, but is that what you\u0027re getting at?"}]},{"start":1795.47,"stop":1804.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1795.47,"stop":1795.89,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Sure."},{"start":1795.89,"stop":1804.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Or even an employee who will instruct people how to go about getting BitTorrent on their computers."}]},{"start":1804.96,"stop":1806.355,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1804.96,"stop":1806.355,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you."}]},{"start":1806.355,"stop":1807.655,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1806.355,"stop":1807.655,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Justice Barrett?"}]},{"start":1807.655,"stop":1834.79500005,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1807.655,"stop":1830.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So, in your understanding of Twitter, would it be enough for contributory or vicarious liability, aid and abet  -- aiding and abetting if Twitter knew that a particular account was being used for child trafficking and didn\u0027t take it down, didn\u0027t cut the user off?  They know it, but they\u0027re not doing anything to facilitate or encourage."},{"start":1830.69,"stop":1834.79500005,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Twitter obviously has -- X has lots of other purposes."}]},{"start":1834.79500005,"stop":1866.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1834.79500005,"stop":1837.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So I think that that\u0027s a hard case."},{"start":1837.64,"stop":1839.74,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I don\u0027t know what -- how Twitter would come out on that."},{"start":1839.74,"stop":1852.995,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But everything  Twitter said about affirmative conduct and malfeasance versus nonfeasance, I would say, would drive the  -- the conclusion the same way that Twitter ultimately drove it."},{"start":1852.995,"stop":1866.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Now I can imagine a court  -- this Court someday carving out an exception for life  and limb or imminent danger of physical harm, but  --"}]},{"start":1866.65,"stop":1878.22,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1866.65,"stop":1878.22,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But your basic answer is that based on your understanding of Twitter, unless we carved out that kind of exception, your theory of aiding and abet  -- aiding and abetting liability anyway is that there would not be liability?"}]},{"start":1878.22,"stop":1901.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1878.22,"stop":1879.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That\u0027s correct."},{"start":1879.41,"stop":1898.665,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I mean, this Court said in Twitter what I said  right at the outset of my argument, that plaintiffs have identified no duty that would require communication-providing services to terminate customers, terminate them after discovering that the customers were using the service for illicit ends."},{"start":1898.665,"stop":1901.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I\u0027m just reading what this Court said in Twitter."}]},{"start":1901.25,"stop":1934.695,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1901.25,"stop":1917.21,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, you know, Justice Kagan is right that in Twitter and in Smith  Wesson, it was a bit more attenuated. You\u0027re putting it out in commerce, but the -- the knowledge link was not as strong as in the hypothetical I gave you or in the hypothetical that Justice Jackson gave you."},{"start":1917.21,"stop":1934.695,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Do you understand aiding and abetting liability to be coextensive with the kind of contributory infringement liability we\u0027re  talking about here?  In other words, is anything that we say here, if we adopt your theory here, is that necessarily going to carry  over to the aiding-and -- aiding-and-abetting context?"}]},{"start":1934.695,"stop":1971.02,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1934.695,"stop":1936.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I  --I would think so, Your Honor."},{"start":1936.2,"stop":1941.54,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"This Court has always treated those two lines of cases interchangeably."},{"start":1941.54,"stop":1953.075,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"When this Court asks what the common law is of  copyright contributory liability, it is looking to, back  --you know, back to Kalem, accomplice liability."},{"start":1953.075,"stop":1961.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So what this Court says here will apply to either contexts, except if there\u0027s a statute that changes the common law."},{"start":1961.01,"stop":1971.02,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And vice  versa, what this Court said in Twitter and in Smith  Wesson should apply with full force to  this version of common law liability."}]},{"start":1971.02,"stop":1995.5,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1971.02,"stop":1973.86,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Last question, and this is a record -based question."},{"start":1973.86,"stop":1995.5,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Just so that I can be clear on how this works, so this department that sends the notices, the one that Paranoid Panda, the employee, was concerned  about, is it dedicated entirely to copyright infringement, or is it also detecting accounts and taking them down either because of failure to pay or  --or other kinds of things?"}]},{"start":1995.5,"stop":2023.195,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":1995.5,"stop":2000.42,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So, Your Honor, it\u0027s called the abuse team and so it tracks all sorts of abuses."},{"start":2000.42,"stop":2006.045,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It got 5.7 million notices in the particular period."},{"start":2006.045,"stop":2012.405,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It was reacting not  just to copyright but to the point I was beginning to make earlier."},{"start":2012.405,"stop":2023.195,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It reacts to phishing, it reacts to fraud claims, it reacts to hacking, none of which there is a legal duty to act."}]},{"start":2023.195,"stop":2025.185,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2023.195,"stop":2025.185,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Justice Jackson?"}]},{"start":2025.185,"stop":2053.59,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2025.185,"stop":2049.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So I guess I\u0027m not sure I understood your answer to Justice  Barrett\u0027s question about the coextensive nature of aiding-and-abetting liability and the kind of liability we\u0027re talking about here because I understood you to be rejecting material  contribution, and I thought material contribution was a form of aiding -and-abetting liability."},{"start":2049.23,"stop":2050.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So maybe I\u0027m confused."},{"start":2050.79,"stop":2053.59,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Are you  rejecting the material contribution theory?"}]},{"start":2053.59,"stop":2066.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2053.59,"stop":2055.13,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No, absolutely not, Your Honor."},{"start":2055.13,"stop":2063.155,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We embrace the full breadth of  contributory liability that includes inducement and includes material contribution."},{"start":2063.155,"stop":2066.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I gave  Justice Kavanaugh a few examples of thing --"}]},{"start":2066.35,"stop":2068.895,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2066.35,"stop":2068.895,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Of how material contribution works in your view?"}]},{"start":2068.895,"stop":2087.43,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2068.895,"stop":2072.395,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" How it would work in  -- in the ISP context."},{"start":2072.395,"stop":2086.31,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I\u0027ll -- I\u0027ll hasten to add, though, the fact that there are not a lot of examples is a function of plaintiffs\u0027  decision to sue the one technology that is least likely to fit a fact pattern of material contribution."},{"start":2086.31,"stop":2087.43,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"A -- an --"}]},{"start":2087.43,"stop":2100.835,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2087.43,"stop":2100.835,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But that\u0027s only if you define it as being only Grokster or Sony. In other words, it depends on how you define material contribution, and I -- I take your definition to be narrower than what I think Respondents will say."}]},{"start":2100.835,"stop":2117.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2100.835,"stop":2112.36,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Oh, it\u0027s definitely narrower than what the Respondents will say because Respondents have never purported to identify an affirmative act to foster infringement."},{"start":2112.36,"stop":2117.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Their argument is knowledge alone is what  --what satisfies  --"}]},{"start":2117.41,"stop":2128.305,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2117.41,"stop":2128.305,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" And your argument is knowledge plus providing the service, the providing the service, Internet service, is not an affirmative act, is that  -- do I have that right?"}]},{"start":2128.305,"stop":2134.73,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2128.305,"stop":2129.18,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That is correct."},{"start":2129.18,"stop":2133.88,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We are providing the Internet service and declining to terminate."},{"start":2133.88,"stop":2134.73,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That\u0027s what we were held liable --"}]},{"start":2134.73,"stop":2152.55,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2134.73,"stop":2146.51,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" To individual customers or ISP addresses, which makes it, some would say, different than Twitter because Twitter was just -- they were putting up a platform that people were using."},{"start":2146.51,"stop":2152.55,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But you\u0027ve got contracts with individual people that you\u0027re providing  Internet service to, correct?"}]},{"start":2152.55,"stop":2158.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2152.55,"stop":2158.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So -- so contracts, yes, but there was an ongoing relationship in  Twitter with all of the customers --"}]},{"start":2158.65,"stop":2165.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2158.65,"stop":2165.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But I mean known, known, in ways that you can isolate the I -- ISP address and the places where the infringement is coming from."}]},{"start":2165.45,"stop":2170.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2165.45,"stop":2168.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" We know the IP address."},{"start":2168.66,"stop":2170.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"If it\u0027s a regional ISP --"}]},{"start":2170.35,"stop":2170.75,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2170.35,"stop":2170.75,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mm -hmm."}]},{"start":2170.75,"stop":2181.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2170.75,"stop":2181.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- there are 10,000 possible homes or businesses who could be infringing, and, as I was saying earlier, that\u0027s the first that will have to get cut off under this liability scheme."}]},{"start":2181.25,"stop":2271.845,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2181.25,"stop":2181.91,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" All right."},{"start":2181.91,"stop":2204.62,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Well, let me ask you just in copyright law in  general, my understanding is that Congress\u0027s goals are key, and I appreciate your view, and it\u0027s true that Congress hasn\u0027t provided statutory liability, but I do think, based on the statute that we have here, Congress understood that common law liability could arise."},{"start":2204.62,"stop":2217.495,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And so what occur -- what -- what concerns me a bit is your encouraging us to adopt a common law rule that would essentially eliminate liability in this situation."},{"start":2217.495,"stop":2224.855,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I guess  I\u0027m coming at this by looking, as -- as several of my colleagues have pointed to, the safe harbor."},{"start":2224.855,"stop":2231.31,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Congress told us in the legislative history what the safe harbor was about."},{"start":2231.31,"stop":2260.77,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"In  -- in  -- in one of the reports, the House report, Congress said that it wanted to \u0022preserve strong incentives for service providers and  copyright owners to cooperate, to detect and deal with copyright infringements.\u0022  And so, even though there isn\u0027t secondary liability in the statute, it appears as though Congress sought to use the liability risk that exists in the common law to incentivize this cooperation."},{"start":2260.77,"stop":2271.845,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And, as several  have pointed out, you -- you seem to be undermining that because we no longer have the incentives if we interpreted this the way that you would have us do."}]},{"start":2271.845,"stop":2298.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2271.845,"stop":2274.34,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So -- so two answers, Justice Jackson."},{"start":2274.34,"stop":2295.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The first is, just to continue the answer I was giving earlier, Congress had no clue what the liability would end up being against four different types of service providers for  --back then, service providers were confronting all sorts of theories of liability."},{"start":2295.79,"stop":2298.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It included direct liability  because you have to copy --"}]},{"start":2298.69,"stop":2319.33,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2298.69,"stop":2302.81,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Right, but I\u0027m positing that Congress\u0027s interest was not necessarily to protect ISPs."},{"start":2302.81,"stop":2305.16,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I appreciate that that  --that\u0027s in there."},{"start":2305.16,"stop":2319.33,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But what I\u0027m pointing to is the part of the legislative history in which Congress said we are setting this up as  an incentive for these ISPs to actually do things to address copyright infringement."}]},{"start":2319.33,"stop":2346.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2319.33,"stop":2319.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Right."},{"start":2319.66,"stop":2321.7,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So  -- so a couple of answers to that."},{"start":2321.7,"stop":2339.22,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"First -- I will get to the legislative history in a moment, but, first and foremost, what Congress said was in 512(l) that the failure to satisfy a safe harbor \u0022shall not adversely bear on liability.\u0022 And it punctuated this point in the Senate report."},{"start":2339.22,"stop":2346.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It was \u0022leaving current law in its evolving state\u0022 because it had no idea and most  certainly couldn\u0027t agree upon --"}]},{"start":2346.64,"stop":2356.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2346.64,"stop":2347.11,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Correct."},{"start":2347.11,"stop":2350.85,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And the evolving state allowed for liability under certain circumstances."},{"start":2350.85,"stop":2356.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So, if we now interpret this to not allow for liability, I\u0027m a little worried we\u0027re undermining Congress\u0027s intent."}]},{"start":2356.96,"stop":2392.24,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2356.96,"stop":2369.71,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Your Honor, Congress had no idea what the liability would allow. There was no case at that point providing for liability for ISPs, that is, holding them liable ultimately."},{"start":2369.71,"stop":2374.635,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I will also underscore there was no such thing as a conduit ISP."},{"start":2374.635,"stop":2376.5,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That was a creature of 512(a)."},{"start":2376.5,"stop":2381.63,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The AOLs of the world were hosting content."},{"start":2381.63,"stop":2392.24,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So Congress  --you -- you -- one cannot impute to Congress any view and  certainly not any unified view about what the liability rules would be in the absence of the"}]},{"start":2392.24,"stop":2392.9,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2392.24,"stop":2392.9,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you."}]},{"start":2392.9,"stop":2400.7549999,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2392.9,"stop":2395.04499995,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you, counsel."},{"start":2395.04499995,"stop":2400.7549999,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Mr. Stewart."}]}]},{"start":2400.7549999,"stop":3600.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"turns":[{"start":2400.7549999,"stop":2455.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2400.7549999,"stop":2417.555,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court:  In Grokster, this Court held that one who distributes a device with the object of promoting its use to infringe copyright can be held liable for its users\u0027 infringement."},{"start":2417.555,"stop":2432.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"In  Twitter and Smith  Wesson, the Court emphasized that to be liable for aiding and  abetting, a person must participate in the primary violation as in something that he wishes to bring about and seeks by his -- seek  by his action to make it succeed."},{"start":2432.66,"stop":2443.825,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Thus, both in copyright law and more generally, this form of secondary liability is  reserved for persons who act for the purpose of facilitating violations of law."},{"start":2443.825,"stop":2453.755,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Because Cox simply provided the same generic Internet  services to infringers and non -infringers alike, there is no basis for inferring such a purpose here."},{"start":2453.755,"stop":2455.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I welcome the Court\u0027s questions."}]},{"start":2455.96,"stop":2500.825,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15100,"name":"Clarence Thomas","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/clarence_thomas","view_count":0,"last_name":"Thomas","roles":[{"id":2744,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":688194000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George H. 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Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2744"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32680,"mime":"image\/png","size":49064,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/clarence_thomas\/clarence_thomas.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":12518,"identifier":"clarence_thomas"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2455.96,"stop":2487.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr. Stewart, in Sony, Justice Stevens was clear that there was no secondary liability provision in the copyright  law, and he relied on the existence of secondary liability in -- in the patent statute  and borrowed from that for his argument that there -- there would be secondary liability in copyright."},{"start":2487.35,"stop":2500.825,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"How much should we borrow from either patent law or from common law with respect to  -- in developing our secondary liability jurisprudence under copyright?"}]},{"start":2500.825,"stop":2576.155,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2500.825,"stop":2506.55,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I think probably the first place you would look is general principles of aiding-and-abetting law, which are common law principles."},{"start":2506.55,"stop":2517.49,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But, if the Court  thinks maybe intellectual property cases are different, it could look to Congress\u0027s codification of secondary liable -- liability principles in the Patent Act."},{"start":2517.49,"stop":2534.155,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And it\u0027s very clear that in patent cases, the Patent Act doesn\u0027t provide for secondary liability in circumstances like these, and the Patent Act in 35 U.S.C. 271(b) says whoever actively induces infringement of a  patent is liable."},{"start":2534.155,"stop":2552.44,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And Section 271(c) says anyone who sells a device that is specially suited to patent infringement, not capable of substantial non -infringing uses, with knowledge of its special character, is liable."},{"start":2552.44,"stop":2564.015,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"There\u0027s nothing in the Patent Act that says, if you  sell a multi-use device to a person that you know is going to use it for infringement, you can be liable on that basis."},{"start":2564.015,"stop":2576.155,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So I think it would be unusual to adopt a special rule of copyright law and ignore the rule of patent law that Congress has  actually adopted in the U.S. Code."}]},{"start":2576.155,"stop":2580.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2576.155,"stop":2580.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Do you read patent law then to be the same as the common law of aiding and abetting?"}]},{"start":2580.25,"stop":2633.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2580.25,"stop":2581.12,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I think  --yes."},{"start":2581.12,"stop":2595.85,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I mean, I think the patent law, as it\u0027s currently codified, incorporates the two bases for secondary liability that the Court adopted in Grokster and Stony  --in Sony as principles of copyright law."},{"start":2595.85,"stop":2610.075,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That is, in Grokster, it said the  -- the -- the law that one who induces infringement can be held liable was a common law principle before it was codified in 1952, and we adopt it here as a principle of copyright law."},{"start":2610.075,"stop":2630.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Similarly, in Sony, said we adopt the staple article of commerce doctrine from patent law as a principle of copyright law, that ordinarily, if you sell a staple article of  commerce, one capable of both infringing and non-infringing uses, you won\u0027t be liable for the misuse made by individual customers."},{"start":2630.41,"stop":2633.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I -- to -- to -- I\u0027m sorry."}]},{"start":2633.72,"stop":2634.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2633.72,"stop":2634.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Go ahead."}]},{"start":2634.25,"stop":2699.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2634.25,"stop":2668.27,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I was going to say, to follow up on Twitter, the -- the two things that we think  --we agree that the suit in Twitter had problems that -- in addition to the ones that we\u0027re noting here; that is, even if the platforms in Twitter had highlighted content celebrating ISIS, they could have been liable for aiding and abetting a particular  attack only if a causal connection could be shown between those videos and the attack, and there was no such proof. But I think two aspects of Twitter are deeply relevant."},{"start":2668.27,"stop":2685.515,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The first is five different times the Court in Twitter quoted in whole or  in part the standard that I just read that a person who aids and abet  --who is liable for aiding and abetting must be shown to have participated in the wrongdoing as something he wishes to succeed."},{"start":2685.515,"stop":2687.995,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And that standard can\u0027t be satisfied here."},{"start":2687.995,"stop":2699.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The second thing the Court in Twitter emphasized time after time was that, at worst,  the platforms had simply treated ISIS the same as they had treated other users, the  --"}]},{"start":2699.72,"stop":2713.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2699.72,"stop":2713.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So does that mean that your answer to the question I asked Mr. Rosenkranz is that, yes, Twitter would not be liable for facilitating child trafficking if it knew that a particular user was using its account  --"}]},{"start":2713.08,"stop":2713.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2713.08,"stop":2713.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" It -- it  --"}]},{"start":2713.39,"stop":2714.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2713.39,"stop":2714.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- for that purpose?"}]},{"start":2714.2,"stop":2769.12,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2714.2,"stop":2716.8,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" --it wouldn\u0027t be secondarily liable."},{"start":2716.8,"stop":2746.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That is, I think lurking in Twitter was the idea  -- and the companion case, Google versus Gonzalez  --was the idea that perhaps a platform like YouTube or Twitter, a platform on which potentially infringing or otherwise unlawful content  actually appears, the platform could be held directly liable on the theory that it has -- it was speaking the words as well as assisting the  --the third -party content provider in doing so."},{"start":2746.95,"stop":2768.52,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And this is a little far down in the weeds, but in the Communications Decency Act of -- of 1996, 230(c)(1) said generally that platforms that host third-party content will not be treated as the publisher or speaker of that third-party content."},{"start":2768.52,"stop":2769.12,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But there\u0027s --"}]},{"start":2769.12,"stop":2771.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2769.12,"stop":2771.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But, for purposes of aiding and abetting, your answer is the same?"}]},{"start":2771.95,"stop":2775.18,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2771.95,"stop":2774.32,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" For purposes of aiding and abetting, the answer is the same."},{"start":2774.32,"stop":2775.18,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And -- and, obviously --"}]},{"start":2775.18,"stop":2776.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2775.18,"stop":2775.81,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr."},{"start":2775.81,"stop":2776.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"-- sorry. Please."}]},{"start":2776.65,"stop":2800.425,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2776.65,"stop":2792.42,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" --direct copyright infringement is a strict liability offense. That is, if you think of the platform as the person who\u0027s actually speaking or publicly performing the infringing video, then it  doesn\u0027t matter whether the platform wants to infringe."},{"start":2792.42,"stop":2794.385,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It can be held liable on that basis."},{"start":2794.385,"stop":2800.425,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But, because Cox just provides the infrastructure, there\u0027s no plausible theory of direct liability."}]},{"start":2800.425,"stop":2822.85,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2800.425,"stop":2807.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr. Stewart, I  -- I  -- I -- I see our discussion revolving around the following dispute:  Okay, purpose is the standard."},{"start":2807.69,"stop":2809.56,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We\u0027ll accept that for now."},{"start":2809.56,"stop":2822.85,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And, under patent law, you say there are two and  only two ways you can infer that intent from knowledge, inducement and special -- specially equipped things that can only predominantly be  used for infringing purposes."}]},{"start":2822.85,"stop":2823.115,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2822.85,"stop":2823.115,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Right."}]},{"start":2823.115,"stop":2823.76,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2823.115,"stop":2823.76,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Is that right?"}]},{"start":2823.76,"stop":2824.19,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2823.76,"stop":2824.19,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Yes."}]},{"start":2824.19,"stop":2835.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2824.19,"stop":2824.83,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Okay."},{"start":2824.83,"stop":2833.685,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Well, at common law, there were no such limitations in terms of those two buckets, right?  You could  infer purpose from a wide variety of things."},{"start":2833.685,"stop":2835.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Are you asking us not to go there?"}]},{"start":2835.66,"stop":2851.15,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2835.66,"stop":2851.15,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I think you can still that  --do that with respect to what I would call targeted assistance; that is, if you are providing assistance to a particular person and you\u0027re not providing it to anyone else and you  know that person is using that assistance to commit a violation of law."}]},{"start":2851.15,"stop":2858.77,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2851.15,"stop":2858.77,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, that kind of falls into the second bucket under patent law in my mind, you know, creating or doing something that\u0027s only -- only going to infringe."}]},{"start":2858.77,"stop":2860.38,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2858.77,"stop":2859.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Yes."},{"start":2859.25,"stop":2859.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And -- and it -- yes."},{"start":2859.96,"stop":2860.38,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Exactly."}]},{"start":2860.38,"stop":2865.97,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2860.38,"stop":2865.97,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But what I\u0027m asking is, okay, under patent law, you\u0027re saying those are the exclusive ways you can infer intent from knowledge."}]},{"start":2865.97,"stop":2868.3,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2865.97,"stop":2868.3,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Those are the only ones that are codified in the patent act."}]},{"start":2868.3,"stop":2876.755,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2868.3,"stop":2868.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Okay."},{"start":2868.39,"stop":2876.755,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And one could make an argument, because this is an implied cause of action, we should be cautious and we  shouldn\u0027t go further than patent law, and I understand that argument."}]},{"start":2876.755,"stop":2877.11,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2876.755,"stop":2877.11,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Right."}]},{"start":2877.11,"stop":2903.13,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2877.11,"stop":2886.28,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But, if  -- at common law, there were no such two buckets, there were many ways you could infer purpose from knowledge and other acts."},{"start":2886.28,"stop":2903.13,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So are  -- are you asking us not to go there because it\u0027s an implied cause of action? Are you  -- or one might say you could reverse the Fourth Circuit simply for failing to apply  the purpose test and go back and do it again, your JMOL analysis, with the correct mens rea."}]},{"start":2903.13,"stop":2921.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2903.13,"stop":2910.97,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I -- I -- we\u0027re not asking the Court to disturb the -- the existing body of copyright law, except with respect to ISPs."},{"start":2910.97,"stop":2921.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That is, in Sony, the  --the Court noted with seeming approval that there were various  lower court cases involving things like dance halls where people were held secondarily liable --"}]},{"start":2921.95,"stop":2929.27,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2921.95,"stop":2929.27,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So, if I  -- I -- just  --so, if I can just summarize, I\u0027m sorry to interrupt, but  -- so you\u0027re saying at least for ISPs, we should go no further than patent law?"}]},{"start":2929.27,"stop":2956.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2929.27,"stop":2929.97,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Yes."},{"start":2929.97,"stop":2943.91,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And -- and particularly with what I would regard as kind of at the opposite extreme from non-targeted assistance; that is, in cases like Grokster and Twitter and in this case, we\u0027re looking at a  pretty narrow subset of aiding and abetting."},{"start":2943.91,"stop":2956.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We\u0027re asking when can a person who provides a good or service to the general  public be liable for misuse of that good or service by some member of the public, and a lot of  --"}]},{"start":2956.08,"stop":2969.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2956.08,"stop":2969.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Last question then. Why shouldn\u0027t we just say, as we might, that the common law require purpose, the Fourth  Circuit analyzed it under knowledge being sufficient, reverse, go back and do your JMOL analysis again?"}]},{"start":2969.2,"stop":3009.745,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":2969.2,"stop":2971.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I think you could absolutely do that."},{"start":2971.01,"stop":2985.14,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And the flaw in the court  of appeals decision was that it acknowledged the purpose language, but it said we typically infer a purpose to cause a particular event from knowledge that the event is substantially certain to occur."},{"start":2985.14,"stop":2990.565,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I think there are bodies of law where we care more about knowledge than purpose or objective."},{"start":2990.565,"stop":2992.07,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But there are others where we don\u0027t."},{"start":2992.07,"stop":3009.745,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And, for instance, in equal juris  -- protection jurisprudence, there\u0027s a fundamental difference between a state doing something because it will produce a racially disparate  impact and doing something for race -- race-neutral reasons even though it will produce a race -- racially disparate impact."}]},{"start":3009.745,"stop":3009.97,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3009.745,"stop":3009.97,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank --"}]},{"start":3009.97,"stop":3010.305,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3009.97,"stop":3010.305,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" And  --"}]},{"start":3010.305,"stop":3015.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3010.305,"stop":3011.19,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- thank you, counsel."},{"start":3011.19,"stop":3015.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Justice Thomas, anything? Justice  -- Justice Sotomayor?"}]},{"start":3015.64,"stop":3034.88,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3015.64,"stop":3034.88,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Are you worried that our holding, going back to Justice Barrett\u0027s earlier question of Mr. Rosenkranz, aren\u0027t you worried that a holding by us as broad as you\u0027re stating it would be a  disincentive for ISP providers to provide any aid to copyright holders?  Why would they bother?"}]},{"start":3034.88,"stop":3035.57,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3034.88,"stop":3035.57,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I mean, they  --"}]},{"start":3035.57,"stop":3042.67,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3035.57,"stop":3042.67,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I mean, I\u0027ve never heard of prosecutors ever relying on good citizenship concepts."}]},{"start":3042.67,"stop":3090.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3042.67,"stop":3044.48,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I -- I -- I agree with that."},{"start":3044.48,"stop":3057.8,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And the ISPs might not bother. I  -- I would push back a little bit against the assumption that good  --good corporate citizenship would necessarily mean terminating repeat infringers."},{"start":3057.8,"stop":3070.18,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Imagine a case in which a person  -- the individual was sued as a direct infringer and a jury found that on multiple occasions  this person had used the Internet to commit direct infringement."},{"start":3070.18,"stop":3080.025,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Clearly, the Court could award damages and, under the Copyright Act, the Court would have authority to fashion an injunction that  was reasonably designed to prevent further infringement."},{"start":3080.025,"stop":3085.48,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But could the district court enjoin the person from ever using the Internet again? I don\u0027t think so."},{"start":3085.48,"stop":3090.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I think the -- the general rule that equitable relief is supposed to be tailored to the wrongdoing --"}]},{"start":3090.96,"stop":3092.73,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3090.96,"stop":3092.73,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I don\u0027t think you\u0027re answering my question."}]},{"start":3092.73,"stop":3093.19,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3092.73,"stop":3093.19,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I --"}]},{"start":3093.19,"stop":3102.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3093.19,"stop":3102.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" What -- what is left for any inducement for ISPs to in good faith try to control infringement?"}]},{"start":3102.41,"stop":3117.91,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3102.41,"stop":3110.88,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I -- I would agree that not much economic incentive would be left. I\u0027m simply questioning whether that\u0027s a bad thing."},{"start":3110.88,"stop":3117.91,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That is, if we don\u0027t think a district court could enjoin a repeat infringer from again using the Internet, I don\u0027t --"}]},{"start":3117.91,"stop":3126.195,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3117.91,"stop":3126.195,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, I\u0027m not thinking, you\u0027re -- you are, but I think  Congress was thinking that there had to be some inducement and that\u0027s why they provided the safe harbor."}]},{"start":3126.195,"stop":3177.52,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3126.195,"stop":3140.09,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" They  --they provided the safe harbor, but they also provided kind of the takedown notice provisions of the -- the DMCA, and nothing  -- no notices like the ones that were sent here are contemplated by the DMCA."},{"start":3140.09,"stop":3151.725,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The DMCA does contemplate notices in which different kinds of Internet company may be informed there are particular infringing  works on your platform and we want you to take those down."},{"start":3151.725,"stop":3163.755,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And if the Internet companies do that, the result is a much more targeted approach. It\u0027s that you get rid of the infringing materials, but the rest of the platform remains intact and people can use it."},{"start":3163.755,"stop":3177.52,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The -- the approach of terminating all access to the Internet based on infringement, it seems extremely overbroad given the centrality of the Internet to modern life and given the First Amendment."}]},{"start":3177.52,"stop":3181.93,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3177.52,"stop":3181.93,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Justice Kagan? Justice Gorsuch? Justice Kavanaugh?"}]},{"start":3181.93,"stop":3211.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3181.93,"stop":3187.315,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" In your brief, you want us to go further than what Justice Gorsuch suggested."},{"start":3187.315,"stop":3205.87,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"As I understood his question to you, it was, should we just say mere knowledge is not enough to show purpose and you said -- and  --and send it back?  And you said that could be okay, but, obviously, in your brief, you  -- you wanted us to go further than that and spell out what could show purpose."},{"start":3205.87,"stop":3211.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So what\u0027s the advantage of going further versus saying less?"}]},{"start":3211.08,"stop":3253.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3211.08,"stop":3219.935,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, the -- the advantage, I guess, is the same one that the Court perceived in Twitter, whereas the Court held that the case should have been dismissed on the pleadings."},{"start":3219.935,"stop":3240.445,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And the idea was a suit in which all you could show was that the defendant had provided kind of generic services to the general public and that some people had misused it and the -- the defendant had failed to make that stop, that wasn\u0027t enough even to get past 12(b)(6)."},{"start":3240.445,"stop":3253.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And so I think there -- there would be an advantage to making clear that in the future, not only should the -- the ISPs win at the end of the day, but they shouldn\u0027t be subject to the burdens of litigation if -- if that\u0027s all you have."}]},{"start":3253.41,"stop":3259.805,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3253.41,"stop":3259.805,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" When I asked Mr. Rosenkranz to spell out what could be done  to show purpose, do you agree with his answer on that?"}]},{"start":3259.805,"stop":3275.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3259.805,"stop":3274.21,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I mean, I guess the  -- the thing I would emphasize, and I\u0027m sorry, I don\u0027t remember the  -- the precise deal  --details of his answer are I would emphasize the  --the differences between targeted assistance and provision of general purpose technology."},{"start":3274.21,"stop":3275.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That is, there are an infinite  --"}]},{"start":3275.79,"stop":3277.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3275.79,"stop":3277.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" What do you mean by \u0022targeted assistance\u0022?"}]},{"start":3277.45,"stop":3285.56,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3277.45,"stop":3285.56,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" There -- there are an infinite number of situations in which somebody  may provide assistance to one person that he isn\u0027t providing to anyone else with  --"}]},{"start":3285.56,"stop":3286.345,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3285.56,"stop":3286.345,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Such as?"}]},{"start":3286.345,"stop":3294.54,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3286.345,"stop":3294.54,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Such as, in the dance hall cases, the  -- the proprietor of the dance hall was hiring a band to play and the band was  --"}]},{"start":3294.54,"stop":3296.33,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3294.54,"stop":3296.33,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" What would be the equivalent here?"}]},{"start":3296.33,"stop":3340.73,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3296.33,"stop":3311.285,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I mean, the  -- I don\u0027t think there would be an ISP equivalent unless, as Mr. Rosenkranz suggested, the company -- the  -- Cox provided some special service that would only be useful for infringers."},{"start":3311.285,"stop":3316.7,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"In that case, you could say that this is targeted at  -- at infringement."},{"start":3316.7,"stop":3331.715,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The point about the  --the targeting is often, when you do something for one person that you don\u0027t do for anyone else and you know that person will use the assistance to commit a legal violation, it\u0027s reasonable to infer that\u0027s why you provided the assistance."},{"start":3331.715,"stop":3340.73,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But,  when you are providing Internet service to every member of the public who will pay the fee, infringers and non-infringers alike, there\u0027s no basis for that --"}]},{"start":3340.73,"stop":3363.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3340.73,"stop":3360.05,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" On  --on the patent law analogy, Mr. Clement in his brief relies heavily on the Henry case from 1912 and  says that it shows that selling a good with the expectation that it would be used to infringe supports contributory liability."},{"start":3360.05,"stop":3362.14,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So that\u0027s a  case heavily relied on."},{"start":3362.14,"stop":3363.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I want to get your response to that."}]},{"start":3363.65,"stop":3435.31,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3363.65,"stop":3366.22,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I guess I\u0027d make two different points about that."},{"start":3366.22,"stop":3382.71,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The first is, as Cox\u0027s reply brief points out, if you look back at the trial court opinion in Henry, the court\u0027s opinion recites that the ink that was being sold was a specially suited ink,  specially developed for a mimeograph of this type."},{"start":3382.71,"stop":3402.94,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And the trial court opinion also reflects that the defendant went to the offices of the purchaser and told her, I\u0027ll sell you this ink for your mimeograph, but pour it into an old jar that was provided to you by the patent holder and throw my jar away."},{"start":3402.94,"stop":3407.77,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And so the word \u0022expectation\u0022 originally came from the  --the trial court\u0027s opinion."},{"start":3407.77,"stop":3409.5,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That was the certified facts."},{"start":3409.5,"stop":3413.78,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And so  I think Henry on its facts was a good case for secondary liability."},{"start":3413.78,"stop":3435.31,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The other thing I would say is, even if you read Henry as standing for a broader proposition, namely, that if you sell a  multipurpose product to a particular customer that you know will use it to infringe, you can be held liable, that\u0027s been superseded by the patent act, in which Congress codified other rules of contributory infringement in patent  case but not that one."}]},{"start":3435.31,"stop":3435.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3435.31,"stop":3435.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you."}]},{"start":3435.69,"stop":3437.275,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3435.69,"stop":3436.525,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you, counsel."},{"start":3436.525,"stop":3437.275,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Justice Barrett?"}]},{"start":3437.275,"stop":3455.19,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3437.275,"stop":3451.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr. Stewart, you told Justice Gorsuch  --this is follow-up to the question Justice Kavanaugh asked -- that it would -- you would be satisfied with our sending it back to the Fourth Circuit and  saying purpose is what you need; you said knowledge was enough, that\u0027s wrong."},{"start":3451.01,"stop":3455.19,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Although  you would prefer for us to say purpose can be shown in these two specific ways."}]},{"start":3455.19,"stop":3455.515,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3455.19,"stop":3455.515,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Right."}]},{"start":3455.515,"stop":3467.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3455.515,"stop":3467.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" What would be the advantage, as you see it, of our taking the  narrow approach and sending it back just based on purpose?  What do you think we might leave open, that we might want to leave open, that falls outside of those two categories?"}]},{"start":3467.95,"stop":3494.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3467.95,"stop":3486.785,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I guess in part I\u0027ll want to hear Mr. Clement\u0027s presentation because I would want to know does he think there is a plausible basis on which his client  might still seek to prevail under a purpose standard when purpose is understood really intent to bring the result about and desire that it succeed."},{"start":3486.785,"stop":3494.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"If Mr. Clement thinks we -- on the existing record, we might be able to show that even in this case, that would weigh in favor of sending it back."}]},{"start":3494.35,"stop":3512.455,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3494.35,"stop":3500.245,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, even apart from this case, you know, we\u0027re thinking about aiding and abetting liability, we\u0027re thinking about beyond this case."},{"start":3500.245,"stop":3512.455,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I mean, are there  scenarios in which you can imagine it being a bad thing for us to say these are the two ways that you can show purpose because we might be ruling out secondary liability in other contexts?"}]},{"start":3512.455,"stop":3540.025,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3512.455,"stop":3524.33,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I would just make it clear that you were limiting your holding to situations in which the plaintiff seeks to impose liability for selling a generic product to a mass audience."},{"start":3524.33,"stop":3530.02,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And in that circumstance, we\u0027re comfortable saying these are  -- these are basically the only two ways."},{"start":3530.02,"stop":3540.025,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But we would not want the Court to foreclose the possibility that purpose could be shown in a variety of ways when you\u0027re providing what I refer to as targeted assistance."}]},{"start":3540.025,"stop":3574.235,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3540.025,"stop":3574.235,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" How broad do you understand Mr. Clement\u0027s theory to be?  If, for  example, the recording industry or Sony has vendors that detect, as here, that particular households, particular -- particular IP addresses are engaged in infringing activity, what if they also sent notices to the electric company, because clearly you can\u0027t run the Internet unless you have electricity for the modem, and said you are supplying this service  and now you have knowledge that it\u0027s also -- that it\u0027s being used for infringement?"}]},{"start":3574.235,"stop":3592.37999995,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":36722,"name":"Malcolm L. Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3574.235,"stop":3592.37999995,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I think Mr. Clement would probably say that the DMCA reflects a  special focus on Internet companies and that it is a justification for inferring potential liability in that scenario and there\u0027s no DMCA equivalent for electric companies."}]},{"start":3592.37999995,"stop":3595.36,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. 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Stewart","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/malcolm_l_stewart","view_count":0,"last_name":"Stewart","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"malcolm_l_stewart"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3595.36,"stop":3597.625,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you."}]},{"start":3597.625,"stop":3600.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3597.625,"stop":3600.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr. Clement."}]}]},{"start":3600.45,"stop":5874.155,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"turns":[{"start":3600.45,"stop":3733.61,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3600.45,"stop":3616.305,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court:  This Court\u0027s cases recognize that liability for copyright infringement is not limited to direct infringers but extends to those who induce, cause, or materially contribute to the infringement of others."},{"start":3616.305,"stop":3628.165,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And  a classic form of material contribution is to provide the means of infringement to a specific known infringer, knowing that infringement is substantially certain to follow."},{"start":3628.165,"stop":3644.58,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That combination of knowledge of a specific consumer  and an ongoing relationship is critical to distinguish culpable conduct from simply engaging in a one-and-done sale of an item that can be used in a way to infringe but is generally used lawfully."},{"start":3644.58,"stop":3657.59,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Now, on this record there  -- it is beyond dispute that Cox provided the service to known infringers with substantial knowledge that what they themselves called habitual abusers would continue to infringe."},{"start":3657.59,"stop":3677.495,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That  reality, along with a record chockful of Cox\u0027s admissions that it held the copyright laws and the DMCA in contempt, is what requires Cox to  insist on the extreme position that they can continue to provide service to habitual abusers, in perpetuity, without consequences."},{"start":3677.495,"stop":3687.15,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That rule has nothing to recommend it and was admitted today would render the DMCA and the cooperation it is intended to foster a dead letter."},{"start":3687.15,"stop":3717.725,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Why bother with a safe harbor? Why limit liability  --why worry about a limitation on liability, which is the express text of the DMCA, if there\u0027s no liability to limit?  Why bother cooperating with copyright holders?  Why bother having a reasonable and  appropriate system for taking down repeat infringers if you\u0027re allowed to behave entirely  unreasonably?  So in all of this, you see that the position that\u0027s being advocated by Cox is a product of the record in this case."},{"start":3717.725,"stop":3731.63,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"If Cox is  right on the law, then Cox could take tens of thousands of copyright notices and throw them in the trash, and they could have its employees say \u0022F the DMCA.\u0022  That is, in fact, what the record says, which is why they\u0027re asking you for an extreme rule."},{"start":3731.63,"stop":3733.61,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I welcome the Court\u0027s questions."}]},{"start":3733.61,"stop":3763.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15100,"name":"Clarence Thomas","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/clarence_thomas","view_count":0,"last_name":"Thomas","roles":[{"id":2744,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":688194000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George H. W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2744"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32680,"mime":"image\/png","size":49064,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/clarence_thomas\/clarence_thomas.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":12518,"identifier":"clarence_thomas"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3733.61,"stop":3745.33,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" How would you give or provide any contours to your approach?  We admit -- we know that secondary liability is atextual."},{"start":3745.33,"stop":3759.86,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Are there any limits?  Justice  Stevens seemed to go to great length in Sony to try to peg it to or attach it to the copy -- the patent laws, patent statute."},{"start":3759.86,"stop":3763.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"What would limit your approach?"}]},{"start":3763.2,"stop":3820.8,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3763.2,"stop":3774.995,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So what would limit my approach is I would say that the provider of the service has to know that specified customers are substantially certain to infringe."},{"start":3774.995,"stop":3801.27,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And that is, to my understanding,  the standard that\u0027s long prevailed in the trademark context, under the Inwood case, where this Court, based on a lower court opinion by Judge Friendly that was based in part by a district court -- earlier district court opinion by Judge Wyzanski, which was based on the common law, says that you can have liability under the trademark laws if you  either induce or you provide the means of infringement to a specific known infringer."},{"start":3801.27,"stop":3802.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So  that is the standard."},{"start":3802.64,"stop":3820.8,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I think if you limit it to knowledge of specific known infringers and you require  -- and not purpose, but intent that requires you to know that providing the service to that customer will make infringement substantially certain, I think that provides a strict limit and plenty of guidance for the lower courts."}]},{"start":3820.8,"stop":3832.305,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15100,"name":"Clarence Thomas","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/clarence_thomas","view_count":0,"last_name":"Thomas","roles":[{"id":2744,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":688194000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George H. W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2744"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32680,"mime":"image\/png","size":49064,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/clarence_thomas\/clarence_thomas.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":12518,"identifier":"clarence_thomas"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3820.8,"stop":3828.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So when we had Grokster up here, we were -- we had a -- we used a much more targeted approach."},{"start":3828.65,"stop":3832.305,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I don\u0027t think -- how far would Grokster get you?"}]},{"start":3832.305,"stop":3847.11,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3832.305,"stop":3847.11,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, Grokster wouldn\u0027t get me very far in this case because this Court in Grokster rested its holding on inducement. But if you look at the briefs in Grokster, if  you look at the oral argument, and what the lawyer for Grokster himself told this Court,  that was all because --"}]},{"start":3847.11,"stop":3848.095,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15100,"name":"Clarence Thomas","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/clarence_thomas","view_count":0,"last_name":"Thomas","roles":[{"id":2744,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":688194000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George H. W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2744"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32680,"mime":"image\/png","size":49064,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/clarence_thomas\/clarence_thomas.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":12518,"identifier":"clarence_thomas"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3847.11,"stop":3848.095,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That wasn\u0027t you, was it?"}]},{"start":3848.095,"stop":3851.33,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3848.095,"stop":3848.82,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" It was not."},{"start":3848.82,"stop":3851.33,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It was Mr. Taranto, who\u0027s a fine federal judge now."}]},{"start":3851.33,"stop":3851.59,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15100,"name":"Clarence Thomas","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/clarence_thomas","view_count":0,"last_name":"Thomas","roles":[{"id":2744,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":688194000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George H. W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2744"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32680,"mime":"image\/png","size":49064,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/clarence_thomas\/clarence_thomas.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":12518,"identifier":"clarence_thomas"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3851.33,"stop":3851.59,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Okay. (Laughter.)"}]},{"start":3851.59,"stop":3887.305,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3851.59,"stop":3861.025,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" And what Mr. Taranto told this Court was that there  -- that -- that the norm of contributory liability was actually material contribution."},{"start":3861.025,"stop":3871.085,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But that wasn\u0027t at issue in the Grokster case because the Grokster technology was structured so that Grokster didn\u0027t know about the infringement of any particular customer."},{"start":3871.085,"stop":3887.305,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So that\u0027s why inducement was where this Court essentially had to go in the  Grokster case, but I don\u0027t think it meant to eliminate what it was told by all the parties,  including the United States, and I did represent them, that the  --that material contribution was an important part of secondary copyright law."}]},{"start":3887.305,"stop":3897.275,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3887.305,"stop":3897.275,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr. Clement, can I just clarify your standard?  Because I\u0027m trying to understand does it have purpose or what I would call intent in it or not?"}]},{"start":3897.275,"stop":3898.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3897.275,"stop":3898.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Yes, it has intent."}]},{"start":3898.35,"stop":3899.115,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3898.35,"stop":3899.115,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" How so?"}]},{"start":3899.115,"stop":3908.77,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3899.115,"stop":3903.03,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" It -- it  --you have to show  --that\u0027s where the substantially certain comes."},{"start":3903.03,"stop":3908.77,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"You have to know that the person you\u0027re providing the service to is substantially certain to infringe."}]},{"start":3908.77,"stop":3921.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3908.77,"stop":3921.25,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But that\u0027s just knowledge of what the person is going to do. If we listen carefully to -- to the Solicitor  General\u0027s representative here, it\u0027s more like you have to want that thing to occur."}]},{"start":3921.25,"stop":3965.62,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3921.25,"stop":3923.99,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So it\u0027s  --what I\u0027m offering you is not just knowledge."},{"start":3923.99,"stop":3943.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It is  intent, and it is intent under the common law. And if you look at the Restatement that was the governing Restatement at the time that both the \u002776 Act was passed and the DMCA was passed, it\u0027s Section 8A of the Restatement (Second) of Torts, and it\u0027s using the definition of intent  for purposes of intentional tort."},{"start":3943.08,"stop":3946.715,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And all  these aiding and abetting torts at common law are intentional torts."},{"start":3946.715,"stop":3948.975,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And it says there\u0027s two ways to show intent."},{"start":3948.975,"stop":3965.62,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"One is what you would think of as purpose, that you actually have the design of carrying out the primary wrongdoer\u0027s purpose. But the second thing, and is  --equally qualifies and is equally intent, is when you provide or do an act knowing that certain results are substantially certain."}]},{"start":3965.62,"stop":3966.26,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3965.62,"stop":3966.26,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So, Mr. Clement  --"}]},{"start":3966.26,"stop":3968.85,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3966.26,"stop":3968.85,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Under the common law, you are charged with intent."}]},{"start":3968.85,"stop":4040.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":3968.85,"stop":3986.115,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But that might be under the common law, but I would think that if you are to read Twitter and then to read Smith Wesson, which basically was all derived from  Twitter, what those two decisions are saying is that that\u0027s not the standard we\u0027re using for aiding and abetting liability."},{"start":3986.115,"stop":3994.34,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I would say, you know, if you read those cases, and there are distinctions in -- in the facts of those cases, but there are three big principles that come out."},{"start":3994.34,"stop":4004.03,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"You know,  one is, Mr. Stewart said five times, Twitter said seek by your action to make it occur, like want to do it, want to have this happen."},{"start":4004.03,"stop":4007.55,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Smith   Wesson probably adds a couple more times to that."},{"start":4007.55,"stop":4008.7,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So that\u0027s one."},{"start":4008.7,"stop":4014.22,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The second is this real distinction between non -feasance and misfeasance."},{"start":4014.22,"stop":4018.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"If all you do say we\u0027re not doing anything, that does not suffice."},{"start":4018.65,"stop":4029.135,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And the third is this distinction between treating the customer just like you treat everybody else, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, providing special assistance."},{"start":4029.135,"stop":4032.98,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And if you look at those three things, you fail on all of them."},{"start":4032.98,"stop":4040.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And -- and -- and that is because those three things are kind of inconsistent with the intent standard that you just laid out."}]},{"start":4040.69,"stop":4103.59,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4040.69,"stop":4046.52,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, I mean, it would also be inconsistent with Halberstam. Halberstam does not have a purposeful intent."},{"start":4046.52,"stop":4057.465,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"In fact, if you look at the three factors of Halberstam, which we  --I think, Congress at least took to be the platonic statement of the  common law, I mean, it talks about knowledge. It doesn\u0027t talk about purpose at all."},{"start":4057.465,"stop":4058.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And of course it would have to."},{"start":4058.95,"stop":4062.825,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Linda Hamilton didn\u0027t have the purpose of killing Halberstam."},{"start":4062.825,"stop":4072.53,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"She probably didn\u0027t even have that  specific purpose of facilitating the sort of night ventures out by her live -in sort of paramour."},{"start":4072.53,"stop":4089.565,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So what  -- what counts at the common law and is always counted at the common law is intent and intent can be showed either by  purpose and design and so I\u0027m -- I\u0027m sure that the Smith  Wesson decision was carefully worded to capture that aspect of it."},{"start":4089.565,"stop":4103.59,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But I don\u0027t think there was any occasion there to jettison essentially half of the common law standard, which is this intent -- where you are charged with the sort of -- those consequences that are substantially certain to follow from your actions."}]},{"start":4103.59,"stop":4103.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4103.59,"stop":4103.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Are -- are there"}]},{"start":4103.79,"stop":4106.05,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4103.79,"stop":4105.18,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I would certainly hope not."},{"start":4105.18,"stop":4106.05,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Now --"}]},{"start":4106.05,"stop":4106.28,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4106.05,"stop":4106.28,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Sorry."}]},{"start":4106.28,"stop":4108.34,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4106.28,"stop":4108.34,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Go ahead."}]},{"start":4108.34,"stop":4140.51,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4108.34,"stop":4135.81,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I don\u0027t see  -- to broaden out Justice Kagan\u0027s question, I don\u0027t see your formulation of intent in our copyright cases either, in Kalem, in Grokster, in Sony, or in the patent law context in Henry either. That seems to suggest a more affirmative advertisement, promotion, instruction kind of formulation to get to purpose."},{"start":4135.81,"stop":4140.51,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So can you deal with the -- the copyright case law more generally?"}]},{"start":4140.51,"stop":4247.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4140.51,"stop":4142.12,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I\u0027d be delighted to."},{"start":4142.12,"stop":4149.135,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And the copyright law, if you go all the way back to the Harper case in 1886 has this notion of material contribution."},{"start":4149.135,"stop":4157.365,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And material contribution is an absolute critical aspect of copyright secondary liabilities as it\u0027s developed over the years."},{"start":4157.365,"stop":4173.255,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I think it\u0027s important to understand that, yeah, you\u0027re right, you know,  Grokster, as I tried to explain, didn\u0027t focus on material contribution but that\u0027s because the knowledge of specific infringing works was missing there essentially by design of the -- the product."},{"start":4173.255,"stop":4177.585,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Now, Sony I think actually does talk a fair amount about material contribution."},{"start":4177.585,"stop":4180.925,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And  what it talks about is it says a couple of things."},{"start":4180.925,"stop":4196.81,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"In the text around footnote 18, it  makes clear that one of the things that made that body of case law inapplicable, and it talks about the dance haul cases and a whole bunch of common law cases, those aren\u0027t applicable there because there\u0027s no ongoing relationship."},{"start":4196.81,"stop":4221.05,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And it sort of  -- and so in that context, where it\u0027s a one-and-done sale, then you really are forced to rely on the patent context of -- of -- of -- of a staple article of commerce that you, just launch in and you have no way of  --of  -- of  --of ascertaining any knowledge. I think, though, it\u0027s very telling that in footnote 19, Judge  -- Judge -- Justice Stevens refers to the trademark law."},{"start":4221.05,"stop":4247.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Now, he says the trademark law is not as apposite there  as the patent law but that\u0027s because trademark law is actually narrower in most respects but he specifically cites in Court\u0027s decision in  Inwood Labs and Inwood Labs could not be clearer that the standard is inducement or material contribution as defined exactly as I\u0027m defining it, which is to provide the means of  infringement to a customer you know is going to use it to infringe."}]},{"start":4247.23,"stop":4247.71,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15068,"name":"Samuel A. Alito, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/samuel_a_alito_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Alito","roles":[{"id":2712,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1138687200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2712"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32684,"mime":"image\/png","size":44799,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/samuel_alito_jr\/samuel_alito_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7304,"identifier":"samuel_a_alito_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4247.23,"stop":4247.71,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr. Clement  --"}]},{"start":4247.71,"stop":4249.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4247.71,"stop":4249.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" And I\u0027ll give you substantially certain on top of that."}]},{"start":4249.45,"stop":4288.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15068,"name":"Samuel A. Alito, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/samuel_a_alito_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Alito","roles":[{"id":2712,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1138687200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2712"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32684,"mime":"image\/png","size":44799,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/samuel_alito_jr\/samuel_alito_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7304,"identifier":"samuel_a_alito_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4249.45,"stop":4279.865,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr. Clement, the United States tells us that the decision of the Fourth Circuit in your opinion -- your position would threaten universal Internet access and emphasizes the problems that would be  --that are encountered when that decision in your  position are applied to a university account shared by thousands of students, maybe 50,000  students and tens of thousands of staff members or regional ISP."},{"start":4279.865,"stop":4288.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I really don\u0027t see how your position works in that context but maybe you can explain how it could."}]},{"start":4288.01,"stop":4353.28,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4288.01,"stop":4304.21,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So I  --I think the way that my position works most readily is that the -- the safe harbor, I think, provides plenty of room for ISPs to handle things like multi-user accounts, fraternities, and the like differently."},{"start":4304.21,"stop":4306.745,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And you can have a different policy under those."},{"start":4306.745,"stop":4320.915,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The way this case was litigated below, my friends on the other side, I mean, that chart on page 11 that was a demonstrative that  wasn\u0027t even introduced into evidence, they didn\u0027t make a big pitch that, like, our liability should be limited to just those customers."},{"start":4320.915,"stop":4344.19,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Part of the reason is because what the record does reflect, things that are in evidence, transcript, trial transcript pages 810 to 811 shows that 95 percent of the  customers covered by the 57,000 sort of customers that are part of the -- the universe that makes up the 10,000 infringement, 95 percent of those are residential customers. Only 5 percent are business customers."},{"start":4344.19,"stop":4348.845,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So I think there\u0027s a reason they didn\u0027t try to limit their liability to the 5 percent."},{"start":4348.845,"stop":4353.28,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And they  --they took a position that was essentially we stand or fall together."}]},{"start":4353.28,"stop":4364.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15068,"name":"Samuel A. Alito, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/samuel_a_alito_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Alito","roles":[{"id":2712,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1138687200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2712"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32684,"mime":"image\/png","size":44799,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/samuel_alito_jr\/samuel_alito_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7304,"identifier":"samuel_a_alito_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4353.28,"stop":4364.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well what\u0027s  -- what is an ISP supposed to do with a university account that has, let\u0027s say, 70,000 users?  What is the university supposed to do in your view?"}]},{"start":4364.66,"stop":4380.94,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4364.66,"stop":4380.55,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" The  -- the university is supposed to -- under those circumstances, the  ISP is supposed to sort of have a conversation with the  -- with the university. Now, the ISP\u0027s policy to the university says you can\u0027t -- you can\u0027t use this service or allow your service to be used for copyright infringement."},{"start":4380.55,"stop":4380.94,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So that\u0027s  --"}]},{"start":4380.94,"stop":4413.09,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15068,"name":"Samuel A. Alito, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/samuel_a_alito_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Alito","roles":[{"id":2712,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1138687200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2712"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32684,"mime":"image\/png","size":44799,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/samuel_alito_jr\/samuel_alito_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7304,"identifier":"samuel_a_alito_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4380.94,"stop":4381.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So, all right."},{"start":4381.69,"stop":4390.47,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The ISP tells the university:  Look, you know, a lot of your -- your 50,000 students are infringing my copyright."},{"start":4390.47,"stop":4391.68,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Do something about it."},{"start":4391.68,"stop":4407.575,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Now, the university then has to try to determine which particular students are  engaging in this activity. And let\u0027s assume it can even do that. And so then it  --it knocks out a thousand students."},{"start":4407.575,"stop":4410.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And then another thousand students are going to pop up doing the same thing."},{"start":4410.79,"stop":4413.09,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I just don\u0027t see how it\u0027s workable at all."}]},{"start":4413.09,"stop":4425.42,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4413.09,"stop":4423.5,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, look, I\u0027m not sure that this record certainly doesn\u0027t support the notion that there are universities that have sort of undifferentiated service to 70,000 students or whatever the hypo is."},{"start":4423.5,"stop":4425.42,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I don\u0027t actually think that\u0027s how it works in practice."}]},{"start":4425.42,"stop":4427.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15068,"name":"Samuel A. Alito, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/samuel_a_alito_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Alito","roles":[{"id":2712,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1138687200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2712"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32684,"mime":"image\/png","size":44799,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/samuel_alito_jr\/samuel_alito_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7304,"identifier":"samuel_a_alito_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4425.42,"stop":4427.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" How does it would, in practice?"}]},{"start":4427.23,"stop":4462.77,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4427.23,"stop":4432.265,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, the way it works in practice, is with, let\u0027s say  --let me  -- let me take something I know a little bit better like a hotel."},{"start":4432.265,"stop":4434.55,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And so like a hotel has lots of guests."},{"start":4434.55,"stop":4460.55,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So the hotel is provided Internet service and the hotel then can do things starting with terms of use but a lot of hotels actually don\u0027t provide their guests at least in a normal way, don\u0027t provide their guests with services at a speed that are sufficient to do peer-to-peer downloading precisely because they don\u0027t want to be in the position of having guests that are staying there largely so they can sort of upload and download copyrighted works."},{"start":4460.55,"stop":4462.77,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And if a particular hotel wants to be, you know  --"}]},{"start":4462.77,"stop":4473.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15068,"name":"Samuel A. Alito, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/samuel_a_alito_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Alito","roles":[{"id":2712,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1138687200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2712"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32684,"mime":"image\/png","size":44799,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/samuel_alito_jr\/samuel_alito_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7304,"identifier":"samuel_a_alito_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4462.77,"stop":4473.41,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Do you think that\u0027s what a university should do?  So students can\u0027t -- students have -- are restricted in -- in  -- in what they can do?"}]},{"start":4473.41,"stop":4504.62,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4473.41,"stop":4483.865,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I don\u0027t think it would be the end of the world if universities provided service at a speed that was sufficient for most other purposes but didn\u0027t allow the students to take full advantage of BitTorrent. I could live in that world."},{"start":4483.865,"stop":4487.14,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But in all events, this isn\u0027t a case that\u0027s just about universities."},{"start":4487.14,"stop":4488.965,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We\u0027ve never sued the universities."},{"start":4488.965,"stop":4490.07,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We\u0027ve sued Cox."},{"start":4490.07,"stop":4504.62,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We\u0027ve  sued Grande, and I think it\u0027s worth in thinking about the consequences of this case, I think  it\u0027s worth taking a quick look at the brief in opposition in the Grande case which is being  held for this case because that\u0027s a case where the ISP did exactly what my friend\u0027s position would incentivize."}]},{"start":4504.62,"stop":4505.125,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4504.62,"stop":4504.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr."},{"start":4504.96,"stop":4505.125,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"--"}]},{"start":4505.125,"stop":4506.97,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4505.125,"stop":4506.97,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Which is they did nothing with the notices."}]},{"start":4506.97,"stop":4519.525,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4506.97,"stop":4515.3,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" It seems like you\u0027re asking us to rely on your good corporate citizen too that you wouldn\u0027t go after the -- the university or the hospital, or that sort of thing."},{"start":4515.3,"stop":4517.89,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I mean, if we decide the ways case in  your favor, you could."},{"start":4517.89,"stop":4519.525,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Are you saying you wouldn\u0027t?"}]},{"start":4519.525,"stop":4556.98,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4519.525,"stop":4521.21,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I don\u0027t think that we could."},{"start":4521.21,"stop":4522.83,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We certainly couldn\u0027t readily."},{"start":4522.83,"stop":4529.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And  again, I think that there is going to be a -- I mean, first of all, you know the hospitals are  in sort of a different position."},{"start":4529.2,"stop":4536.575,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"They\u0027re kind of like more of the intermediary where, you know, and  --and there\u0027s no safe harbor that\u0027s specific to hospitals and universities."},{"start":4536.575,"stop":4543.655,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I mean, you know, Congress was very focused in 1998 on the role of ISPs in all of this."},{"start":4543.655,"stop":4548.92,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And they wanted to create an incentive for the ISPs to adopt reasonable measures."},{"start":4548.92,"stop":4556.98,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And  I think that would certainly accommodate measures that treat multi-user addresses quite differently from residential customers."}]},{"start":4556.98,"stop":4582.125,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":63282,"name":"Amy Coney Barrett","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/amy_coney_barrett","view_count":0,"last_name":"Barrett","roles":[{"id":3511,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1603774800,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3511"}],"thumbnail":{"id":81207,"mime":"image\/png","size":47722,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/barret-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":1921,"identifier":"amy_coney_barrett"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4556.98,"stop":4582.125,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" If you lose, what is the effects on your copyright holders?  Like let\u0027s -- you know because you monitor and then  send the ISPs the accounts that are downloading the copyrighted material, right?  So you could still try to protect your copyright but it wouldn\u0027t be as deep a pocket and it would be a lot worse, right, if you had  to go after the individual users themselves but you wouldn\u0027t be without recourse?"}]},{"start":4582.125,"stop":4637.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4582.125,"stop":4586.43,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" We would  --we would be without scalable functional recourse."},{"start":4586.43,"stop":4596.875,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And if  you look at the Seventh Circuit Aimster decision, like even back then, Judge Posner had a nice phrase for what direct infringement is, which is it\u0027s a teaspoon solution to an ocean problem."},{"start":4596.875,"stop":4603.84,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So if my clients are limited to  direct infringement actions, they are in very, very dire straits."},{"start":4603.84,"stop":4621.56,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But it\u0027s worse than that, because the key thing about the safe harbor is the safe harbor is not only what gives the -- the ISPs an incentive to behave responsibly, it\u0027s also what gives them incentive to come to the table and have negotiations with the content community."},{"start":4621.56,"stop":4625.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And if you look at the Motion  Pictures Association brief, they talked about this at length."},{"start":4625.96,"stop":4637.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And if you look at the report of the copyright office, they put up together a 200-page report on 512 in the safe harbors. And what they talk about is how it\u0027s -- important it is for essentially both sides to  have skin in the game."}]},{"start":4637.66,"stop":4667.965,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4637.66,"stop":4654.055,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I guess if  -- if you win, why would they cooperate?  If  --if you win, it seems to me that the best response that Cox could have is just to make sure that it doesn\u0027t read any of your notices ever again because all of your position is based on Cox having knowledge of this."},{"start":4654.055,"stop":4667.965,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Right now Cox is agreeing to participate in this notice system, but why  doesn\u0027t Cox just walk away from the deal and say, you know, we\u0027re  --we just don\u0027t care what our users are doing on our -- on our infrastructure?"}]},{"start":4667.965,"stop":4672.84,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4667.965,"stop":4672.77,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So, if we win and they do that, then they\u0027re not going to be able to take advantage of the safe harbor."},{"start":4672.77,"stop":4672.84,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I cert --"}]},{"start":4672.84,"stop":4677.48,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4672.84,"stop":4677.48,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" They don\u0027t need to take advantage of the safe harbor because,  without knowledge, they\u0027re not going to have liability."}]},{"start":4677.48,"stop":4692.4,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4677.48,"stop":4685.11,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I think there\u0027s a concept in the law called willful blindness,  Your Honor, and I think willful blindness would satisfy the common law standard for aiding and abetting."},{"start":4685.11,"stop":4692.4,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And so, if somebody can\u0027t  -- you know, if  -- if you have, like, the hammer of the month club and you keep on giving a hammer to somebody who is, you know --"}]},{"start":4692.4,"stop":4698.5,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4692.4,"stop":4698.5,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So you think, if Cox says we\u0027re not interested in reading your  notices anymore, that would count as willful blindness?"}]},{"start":4698.5,"stop":4699.58499995,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4698.5,"stop":4699.58499995,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I do."}]},{"start":4699.58499995,"stop":4700.56,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4699.58499995,"stop":4700.56,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr."},{"start":4700.56,"stop":4700.56,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"--"}]},{"start":4700.56,"stop":4748.885,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4700.56,"stop":4712.005,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Can I ask a question, a separation -of-powers question here. Justice Alito referred to the policy issues,  and you argue that the policy issue is going the other way, the ocean problem."},{"start":4712.005,"stop":4718.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"On the law, we\u0027re obviously debating exactly what \u0022purpose\u0022 means and encompasses in this context."},{"start":4718.64,"stop":4727.16,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But, to go back to Justice Thomas\u0027s question, Congress has not enacted a statute here for secondary liability."},{"start":4727.16,"stop":4742.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And in our implied-rights-of-actions cases in multiple contexts that Justice Gorsuch referred to  earlier, we read those implied rights of action narrowly and let Congress debate issues like  the ones you and Justice Alito were discussing."},{"start":4742.96,"stop":4748.885,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Why shouldn\u0027t that be a kind of tiebreaker here of letting Congress solve the  issues that you\u0027re raising?"}]},{"start":4748.885,"stop":4876.785,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4748.885,"stop":4751.65,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, I  -- I think it shouldn\u0027t for a couple of reasons."},{"start":4751.65,"stop":4755.31,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"First of  all, I don\u0027t think you\u0027re dealing with an implied cause of action."},{"start":4755.31,"stop":4771.63,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I think you are dealing with an express cause of action in -- in the Copyright Act, and the question is, to what extent does it reach sort of secondary infringement?  And I think, at this point, it\u0027s too late to say that Congress hasn\u0027t endorsed it. Let me point to three things if I could."},{"start":4771.63,"stop":4789.375,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"One  is the addition in 1976 to  -- in --in the basic provision of rights to copyright holders, Congress added the words \u0022to authorize.\u0022  So  it\u0027s no longer you just have the exclusive rights to do certain things, like copy and distribute, but you now have the exclusive right to authorize it."},{"start":4789.375,"stop":4796.955,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And for those that want  to take a peek at a Senate report, that -- those words were added specifically to capture secondary liability."},{"start":4796.955,"stop":4800.255,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So Congress starting in \u002776 expressly adopted it."},{"start":4800.255,"stop":4809.945,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But then the DMCA, for reasons that we\u0027ve already talked about, I don\u0027t think can be reasonably understood except against the backdrop of secondary liability."},{"start":4809.945,"stop":4815.74,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And Congress put specific weight  -- and, again, this is the Senate report  --but it looked at three contemporaneous cases."},{"start":4815.74,"stop":4816.855,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"There was the Playboy  case."},{"start":4816.855,"stop":4841.685,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I think the case that\u0027s most instructive is the Netcom case, which was right  -- it was a \u002795 case, and that was a case that said, well, for somebody who\u0027s like an ISP -- I\u0027m sure my friend will say it\u0027s not exactly like the ISP today -- but somebody who\u0027s very much like an ISP, there was no vicarious liability because  they didn\u0027t make money off of the infringing, but there was material contribution liability. So that\u0027s the evolving common law that Congress is passing."},{"start":4841.685,"stop":4865.005,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And so I think Congress embodies that in the DMCA safe harbor, but just  as a cherry on the sundae, in the same DMCA provision that I only came across over the  weekend but still is in there, 17 U.S.C. 1201(c)(2) is another provision that sort of  says that the anti-circumvention provisions are not designed to change the rules of vicarious and contributory liability."},{"start":4865.005,"stop":4876.785,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So I think there are multiple textual acknowledgments of vicarious and -- vicarious and contributory infringement in the code that  distinguish this from your sort of classic --"}]},{"start":4876.785,"stop":4877.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4876.785,"stop":4877.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well  --"}]},{"start":4877.46,"stop":4877.91,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4877.46,"stop":4877.91,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- implied-rights-of- action case."}]},{"start":4877.91,"stop":4899.045,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4877.91,"stop":4883.725,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- Mr. Clement, though, just to follow up on that, I -- I  -- I\u0027m taking all that as given."},{"start":4883.725,"stop":4888.89,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Congress still hasn\u0027t defined the contours of what secondary liability should look like."},{"start":4888.89,"stop":4899.045,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Here, we are debating them, right?  So shouldn\u0027t that be a flag of caution for us in expanding it too broadly?"}]},{"start":4899.045,"stop":4903.19,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4899.045,"stop":4903.19,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, I think it would be a cautionary tale to not go beyond the common law."}]},{"start":4903.19,"stop":4924.09,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4903.19,"stop":4924.09,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, a cautionary tale maybe to take account of where patent law  is, that Sony relied on in part, for example. I mean, in Central Bank of Denver, as you well know, the Court refused to imply any aiding -and-abetting liability under the Securities Exchange Act, and, you know, so Sony  sits in some tension with our law right there. And  --"}]},{"start":4924.09,"stop":4924.99,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4924.09,"stop":4924.99,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But that  --that was --"}]},{"start":4924.99,"stop":4926.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4924.99,"stop":4926.69,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- isn\u0027t that a flag on the field for us?"}]},{"start":4926.69,"stop":4937.21,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4926.69,"stop":4937.21,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I don\u0027t  -- I mean, you know, look, Central Bank of Denver, you already have, like, a made-up cause of action, and the question is, do we make up a bow on the made-up cause of action?  I think that\u0027s different from  what you have in a case like this."}]},{"start":4937.21,"stop":4940.62,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4940.62,"stop":4940.99,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No."},{"start":4940.99,"stop":4951.11,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I really do think here, given all the text that you have and the Court\u0027s precedents, which aren\u0027t nothing, that  it\u0027s too late to sort of say this is all like an implied cause of action."}]},{"start":4951.11,"stop":4957.035,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4957.035,"stop":4959.34,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Look, it\u0027s always good to have caution."}]},{"start":4959.34,"stop":4959.86,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4959.86,"stop":4964.08,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But I would look -- I would look not just at the patent law; I would  look to the trademark law."},{"start":4964.08,"stop":4965.38,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I would take the trouble --"}]},{"start":4965.38,"stop":4965.8,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4965.8,"stop":4967.62,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I would take the trouble to trace it back --"}]},{"start":4967.62,"stop":4968.84,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4968.84,"stop":4969.78,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" --to the common law."}]},{"start":4969.78,"stop":4990.625,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4969.78,"stop":4987.815,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Even under your standard, that\u0027s not what the Fourth Circuit did, right?  It didn\u0027t say did you have specific knowledge of individual users who are infringing and did you do something special  with regard to them such that you were substantially certain that you would  -- that you know that they would, in fact, infringe."},{"start":4987.815,"stop":4990.625,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We -- we\u0027d have to reverse under your standard too  --"}]},{"start":4990.625,"stop":4991.85,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4990.625,"stop":4991.85,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I don\u0027t think so, but  --"}]},{"start":4991.85,"stop":4992.81,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4992.81,"stop":4993.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I -- I --"}]},{"start":4993.2,"stop":4994.58,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4993.2,"stop":4994.58,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" That\u0027s not  --that\u0027s not what they held."}]},{"start":4994.58,"stop":5004.84,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":4994.58,"stop":5004.84,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, I think you and I just read the Fourth Circuit case differently. I read the Fourth Circuit opinion by Judge Rushing to specifically say the substantial certainty test is what\u0027s being applied and is what makes it  --"}]},{"start":5004.84,"stop":5012.53,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5012.53,"stop":5015.3,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, you\u0027ve got a brief from some other intellectual property lawyers who  --"}]},{"start":5015.3,"stop":5015.99,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5029.14,"stop":5033.9,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No, but I actually think it is, but it  --it\u0027s a little bit opaque in the opinion because this case --"}]},{"start":5033.9,"stop":5034.68,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5034.68,"stop":5035,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No, no."},{"start":5035,"stop":5041.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But it\u0027s opaque for a very specific reason, because, you know, this case sort of piggybacks on the earlier BMG decision."},{"start":5041.95,"stop":5050.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And in the BMG decision, the Fourth  Circuit says that once you have knowledge that the same customer or address is going to --"}]},{"start":5050.72,"stop":5057.675,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5050.72,"stop":5054.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" No, not address, not address because it could be a lot of people at the address."},{"start":5054.23,"stop":5055.09,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The customer."},{"start":5055.09,"stop":5057.675,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And that analysis isn\u0027t what the Fourth Circuit did."}]},{"start":5057.675,"stop":5062.49,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5057.675,"stop":5062.49,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, I  -- I think the customer did it as to the bill payer, the account holder --"}]},{"start":5062.49,"stop":5062.58,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5062.58,"stop":5066.39,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- which, of course, is the same unit that Cox uses when there\u0027s non-payment."}]},{"start":5066.39,"stop":5067.59,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. 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Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5067.59,"stop":5070.17,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" When  --when -- when Cox doesn\u0027t get payment from grandma, they don\u0027t --"}]},{"start":5070.17,"stop":5073.115,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5070.17,"stop":5073.115,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But that isn\u0027t the common -- that isn\u0027t common law even under the Restatement."}]},{"start":5073.115,"stop":5076.84,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5073.115,"stop":5076,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I think that is the common law still."},{"start":5076,"stop":5076.84,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I don\u0027t think you need  --"}]},{"start":5076.84,"stop":5085.54,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5076.84,"stop":5082.6,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I know a group of people, I know somebody in this group of people was involved and I did nothing."},{"start":5082.6,"stop":5085.54,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That\u0027s -- that\u0027s -- that\u0027s not substantial certainty."}]},{"start":5085.54,"stop":5106.485,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5085.54,"stop":5095.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So, with  --with residential customers, I think it is, but in all events, that was ruled on in summary judgment in this case."},{"start":5095.95,"stop":5106.485,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And then what the Fourth Circuit did  -- and I don\u0027t think you can read this part of the opinion differently  -- they said that Cox forfeited any argument that they didn\u0027t have knowledge to the specific customers."}]},{"start":5106.485,"stop":5107.295,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5106.485,"stop":5106.81,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" All right."},{"start":5106.81,"stop":5107.295,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Thank you."}]},{"start":5107.295,"stop":5156.3,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5107.295,"stop":5107.94,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Mr."},{"start":5107.94,"stop":5115.145,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"-- Mr. Clement, can I just bear down a little bit on your test,  because I\u0027m still trying to understand it with respect to intent."},{"start":5115.145,"stop":5130.415,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"You say that the intent aspect of this is established by knowledge that a customer -- specific knowledge that a customer is substantially certain to infringe."},{"start":5130.415,"stop":5156.3,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I guess where I want to go with that in asking you is,  once that is established, is that an inference of intent?  Is there something that the defendant could do in response to establish -- to rebut that inference, or are you saying that all that is necessary is for the plaintiff to  show that and then the intent, to the extent it\u0027s an element, is satisfied and that\u0027s it?"}]},{"start":5156.3,"stop":5162.8,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5156.3,"stop":5160.51,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I don\u0027t  --what I would say is I think that\u0027s enough on the intent element to get to the jury."},{"start":5160.51,"stop":5162.8,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It\u0027s not enough to  get directed verdict in my favor."}]},{"start":5162.8,"stop":5162.945,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5162.8,"stop":5162.945,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Okay."}]},{"start":5162.945,"stop":5170.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5162.945,"stop":5164.26,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But it\u0027s enough to get to the jury."},{"start":5164.26,"stop":5170.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And Cox can go and they can try to argue that, oh, no, we had the purest  intent, we tried really, really hard --"}]},{"start":5170.45,"stop":5184.505,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5170.45,"stop":5184.505,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Could they point to all the things that they did that they say was enough for the safe harbor even though the court -- the other court found it wasn\u0027t? Could they point to those sorts of things as  evidence to rebut this suggestion that they intended for this to happen?"}]},{"start":5184.505,"stop":5186.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5184.505,"stop":5185,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Yes."},{"start":5185,"stop":5186.72,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But, of course, I could point to the \u0022F the DMCA\u0022 e -mail  --"}]},{"start":5186.72,"stop":5187.04,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5186.72,"stop":5186.95,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Yes."},{"start":5186.95,"stop":5187.04,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Sure."}]},{"start":5187.04,"stop":5189.59,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5187.04,"stop":5189.59,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- and I think I\u0027d probably do all right on that exchange."}]},{"start":5189.59,"stop":5190.1,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5189.59,"stop":5190.1,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Sure."}]},{"start":5190.1,"stop":5287.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5190.1,"stop":5196.515,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" And, you know, keep in mind this went to a jury and it went to a jury of 12 people who probably didn\u0027t want to lose their Internet connection."},{"start":5196.515,"stop":5203.245,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And yet, hearing  all the evidence here, they had very little trouble saying this is a case where there is material contribution."},{"start":5203.245,"stop":5208.38,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"This is a case where there should be aiding -and -abetting liability because of the conduct that took place here."},{"start":5208.38,"stop":5218.105,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I guess I would just sort of take a step back from this to say, you know, if you think about this kind of in Halberstam or  Twitter terms, you know, there\u0027s two kind of elements that are critical."},{"start":5218.105,"stop":5220.24,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"One is the intent  element."},{"start":5220.24,"stop":5225.58,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And if you look at Twitter and you  look at Halberstam, the intent level is not purposeful."},{"start":5225.58,"stop":5232.325,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And then the other question, of course, is material contribution or, in aiding -and-abetting terms, substantial assistance."},{"start":5232.325,"stop":5248.945,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I think the one way in which the copyright laws, the trademark laws are a little bit different, is I think they do think  that when you are providing the means of infringement to somebody, I mean, that\u0027s pretty  easy to show that that is material contribution, substantial assistance."},{"start":5248.945,"stop":5266.335,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And so, if you\u0027re looking to distinguish the FedEx\u0027s of the world, the electrical companies of the world, I\u0027m going to agree with Mr. Stewart, I thought he did an  excellent job of sort of parroting what my answer would have been with respect to the DMCA, but I would also say, you know, there\u0027s a difference when you\u0027re providing the means of  infringement, which is what the ISPs do in these cases."},{"start":5266.335,"stop":5272.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That is going to be material  contribution if you\u0027re doing it with knowledge of specific customers and what they\u0027re likely  to do."},{"start":5272.79,"stop":5287.23,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And that\u0027s true in the trademark context as well, where you\u0027re providing it -- you know, the Inwood case is you had a drug manufacturer who\u0027s giving it to somebody and they know that person, that generic person is passing them off as branded pharmaceuticals, and that\u0027s where this Court said yeah, there\u0027s liability for that."}]},{"start":5287.23,"stop":5316.245,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5287.23,"stop":5311.63,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So there was a scenario in the Smith  Wesson case which we didn\u0027t quite have to grab hold of because of the way the complaint was framed, but suppose that the complaint had said there\u0027s a manufacturer and it provides guns to dealers, and it knows to a certainty that there\u0027s a specific dealer that\u0027s a bad-apple dealer passing this on to Mexican drug traffickers."},{"start":5311.63,"stop":5316.245,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Is the manufacturer then liable for all the harm that that causes?"}]},{"start":5316.245,"stop":5320.33,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5316.245,"stop":5320.33,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I mean, there was, like, a separate question of proximate cause in that  case that this Court didn\u0027t reach --"}]},{"start":5320.33,"stop":5321.26,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15094,"name":"Elena Kagan","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/elena_kagan","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kagan","roles":[{"id":2738,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1281157200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2738"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32690,"mime":"image\/png","size":44456,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/elena_kagan\/elena_kagan.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":5655,"identifier":"elena_kagan"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5320.33,"stop":5320.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Right."},{"start":5320.64,"stop":5321.26,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Put that aside."}]},{"start":5321.26,"stop":5343.725,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5321.26,"stop":5329.58,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" -- and I don\u0027t know the answer to, but I -- I think, you know, and I think there were questions at oral argument about red-flag dealers and if you had specific knowledge you were providing them to the red-flag dealers."},{"start":5329.58,"stop":5334.57,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I think that probably would satisfy the -- the -- the -- the intent standard at least at the common law."},{"start":5334.57,"stop":5343.61,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Again, I don\u0027t know all of the details of the PCLAA or  whatever it is that was at issue there, so I don\u0027t want to sort of speak against any of my other clients."},{"start":5343.61,"stop":5343.725,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"(Laughter.)"}]},{"start":5343.725,"stop":5350.105,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5343.725,"stop":5350.105,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But  -- but I --but I -- but I do think that with respect to the common law intent, that would be -- that would be satisfied."}]},{"start":5350.105,"stop":5362.255,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":33869,"name":"Ketanji Brown Jackson","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/ketanji_brown_jackson","view_count":0,"last_name":"Jackson","roles":[{"id":3520,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1656565200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":null,"role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3520"}],"thumbnail":{"id":82011,"mime":"image\/png","size":58056,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/thumbnail_ketanji_brown_jackson.png"},"length_of_service":1310,"identifier":"ketanji_brown_jackson"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5350.105,"stop":5362.255,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" What about willfulness?  Can you speak to the argument  that willfulness here requires that the defendant understand that its own conduct is unlawful?"}]},{"start":5362.255,"stop":5419.7,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5362.255,"stop":5364.34,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So I  --I think they\u0027re wrong about that."},{"start":5364.34,"stop":5372.945,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I think they\u0027re wrong about  that for reasons that are textual and also reasons that have to do with kind of the common law and the way that it treats aiding and abetting or secondary liability."},{"start":5372.945,"stop":5387.27,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So, if you think about the common law, you are  -- if you have aiding and abetting, then you are essentially on the hook for the consequences of the mens rea of the person you\u0027re assisting and your own sort of mens rea  beyond aiding and abetting doesn\u0027t count."},{"start":5387.27,"stop":5408.925,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So, if I aid and abet a first-degree murderer, I\u0027m  --you know, either criminally or civilly, I\u0027m on the hook for the first-degree murder and -- but whereas, if I aid and abet -- now all my conduct is exactly the same and I aid and abet somebody in manslaughter, the consequences are different. And then, if you look at the text here, the relevant text is 504 of the Copyright Act."},{"start":5408.925,"stop":5412.88,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It actually doesn\u0027t focus on the mental state of the infringer."},{"start":5412.88,"stop":5415.515,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It asks whether the infringement was willful."},{"start":5415.515,"stop":5419.7,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And, of course, in  this context, it\u0027s the direct infringer who\u0027s doing the infringement."}]},{"start":5419.7,"stop":5424.79000005,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5419.7,"stop":5424.79000005,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you. Justice Thomas, anything further? Justice Alito? Justice Sotomayor?"}]},{"start":5424.79000005,"stop":5539.73,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5424.79000005,"stop":5428.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" We are being put to two extremes here."},{"start":5428.35,"stop":5443.67,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The other side says  there\u0027s no liability because we\u0027re just putting out into the stream of commerce a good that can be used for good or bad and we\u0027re not responsible for the infringers\u0027 decision."},{"start":5443.67,"stop":5462.21,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We have the other side, which you\u0027re moving away from Respond -- Petitioners\u0027 and the SG\u0027s position that the only way you can have aiding and abetting in this field is if  you have purpose, all right, and you\u0027re saying we don\u0027t have to prove purpose."},{"start":5462.21,"stop":5484.745,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"We have to prove only intent, correct?  That\u0027s the other extreme. But what Justice Alito said, and some of this is that the Internet is so amorphous and what it can or cannot do I\u0027m not sure about, we\u0027re being told that ISPs only know who their customer is, and their customer could be a region."},{"start":5484.745,"stop":5506.83,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And if it\u0027s a region, to say that because one person in that region continues to infringe, that the ISP is materially supporting that infringement because it\u0027s not cutting off  the Internet for the 50,000 or 100,000 people who are represented by that customer."},{"start":5506.83,"stop":5533.925,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"There is a feeling of how can I say there\u0027s a purpose to participate in that situation, whereas I could see a purpose on single -family homes because, there, they\u0027re usually limited by the number of people and one  could say, if you know that it\u0027s one or two or a family of five or whatever number it is, it\u0027s small, that surely I\u0027m materially contributing there."},{"start":5533.925,"stop":5539.73,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"How do we announce a rule that deals with those two extremes?"}]},{"start":5539.73,"stop":5551.91,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5539.73,"stop":5545.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So, I -- I mean, you know, my  -- my --my front -line answer would be I think the safe harbor takes care of the regionalized piece."},{"start":5545.96,"stop":5551.91,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And, frankly, I\u0027m not  worried about the regionalized piece because, if  -- if that were really the problem, we could go after the regionalized piece."}]},{"start":5551.91,"stop":5560.035,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5551.91,"stop":5560.035,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, you told me that there were 95 percent of the infringements  here were of residences, so you could go after those 95 percent."}]},{"start":5560.035,"stop":5591.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5560.035,"stop":5560.55,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Right."},{"start":5560.55,"stop":5564.64,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And we could probably figure out who the regional ISP is and then go after its customers."},{"start":5564.64,"stop":5567.845,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That\u0027s why I\u0027m not going to die on the hill of the regional ISPs."},{"start":5567.845,"stop":5580.31,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I think you could, I mean, you know, material support, I mean, you know, heaven knows this Court remembers from Twitter that,  you know, by the time you look at the common law, you had six factors under Halberstam for what is substantial assistance."},{"start":5580.31,"stop":5591.45,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So there\u0027s clearly enough sort of, if  -- if you want to, if that\u0027s the -- if that\u0027s the hypo that\u0027s concerning you, then you  can certainly sort of come up with a definition of material contribution that carves that out. I think the --"}]},{"start":5591.45,"stop":5592.205,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5591.45,"stop":5592.205,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Give it to me."}]},{"start":5592.205,"stop":5593.04,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5592.205,"stop":5593.04,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" What\u0027s that?"}]},{"start":5593.04,"stop":5594.815,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5593.04,"stop":5594.815,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Give it to me. I\u0027m inviting you to help me."}]},{"start":5594.815,"stop":5596.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5594.815,"stop":5596.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" And I\u0027m inviting you to take my help."}]},{"start":5596.46,"stop":5596.71,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15131,"name":"Sonia Sotomayor","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/sonia_sotomayor","view_count":0,"last_name":"Sotomayor","roles":[{"id":2776,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1249707600,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Barack Obama","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2776"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32685,"mime":"image\/png","size":50379,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/sonia_sotomayor\/sonia_sotomayor.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":6019,"identifier":"sonia_sotomayor"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5596.46,"stop":5596.71,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Establish --"}]},{"start":5596.71,"stop":5625.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5596.71,"stop":5611.73,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I mean, I -- I don\u0027t want to, like  --you know, it\u0027s -- it\u0027s hard to just absolutely give it away in a case where that\u0027s not the way the case was litigated, but  I am telling you that, you know, my -- my friend I thought was remarkably candid in admitting that if you adopt their position, that really is an extreme position."},{"start":5611.73,"stop":5614.325,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The DMCA  and the safe harbors are a dead letter."},{"start":5614.325,"stop":5625.46,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"If you carve out regional ISPs, the safe harbor is alive and well and equally importantly, the incentives for both sides to come and to try to have a reasonable negotiation are alive and well."}]},{"start":5625.46,"stop":5629.415,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5625.46,"stop":5629.415,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Justice Kagan? Justice Gorsuch?"}]},{"start":5629.415,"stop":5663.22,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5629.415,"stop":5639.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" If we were to  --I think Justice Kagan\u0027s right that our  -- our -- our precedents speak of purpose, and we have two options."},{"start":5639.01,"stop":5647.425,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"One, we could take the additional step and say that because this is an implied-ish cause of action, we\u0027re going to construe it very narrowly."},{"start":5647.425,"stop":5650.88,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Look to the patent law and JMOL."},{"start":5650.88,"stop":5656.27,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The other alternative would be to say it\u0027s purpose and reverse and remand."},{"start":5656.27,"stop":5663.22,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And Mr. Malcolm invited you to say whether you thought you could prevail under that standard below."}]},{"start":5663.22,"stop":5668.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5663.22,"stop":5668.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Well, obviously, I prefer Door Number 3, but I would also prefer what  --"}]},{"start":5668.01,"stop":5668.76,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5668.01,"stop":5668.76,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I understand Door Number 3."}]},{"start":5668.76,"stop":5685.325,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5668.76,"stop":5674.09,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Whatever the standard is, I\u0027d prefer -- I --I\u0027d prefer a chance to pursue that."},{"start":5674.09,"stop":5685.325,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And I would think, even under purpose, there has to be room for treating somebody that says \u0022F the DMCA\u0022 differently  from somebody that tries their level best to comply and doesn\u0027t."}]},{"start":5685.325,"stop":5686.595,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":62836,"name":"Neil Gorsuch","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/neil_gorsuch","view_count":0,"last_name":"Gorsuch","roles":[{"id":3506,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1491541200,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3506"}],"thumbnail":{"id":79753,"mime":"image\/png","size":121461,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/neil_gorsuch.thumb__0.png"},"length_of_service":3220,"identifier":"neil_gorsuch"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5685.325,"stop":5686.595,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you."}]},{"start":5686.595,"stop":5687.87,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5686.595,"stop":5687.87,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Justice Kavanaugh?"}]},{"start":5687.87,"stop":5760.545,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5687.87,"stop":5699.345,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" You\u0027re drawing a distinction between intent and purpose, and you also, though, rely on the Henry case quite a  bit from 1912 in the patent context."},{"start":5699.345,"stop":5724.7,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And, there, the Court said there must be an intent and purpose that the article sold will be so used and then says it may also be  inferred or its most conspicuous use is one which will cooperate in infringement when sale  to such user is invoked by advertisements, though advertisement as an example of when there\u0027s an intent and purpose."},{"start":5724.7,"stop":5752.01,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And then, in Kalem, which is argued within a week of Henry back in 1911, Kalem\u0027s the copyright case, of course, in the reply brief, the other side points out that you  ignore Kalem in your brief, but Kalem itself says in the copyright context, the defendant not only expected but invoked by advertisement  the use of its films for dramatic reproduction of the story."},{"start":5752.01,"stop":5755.36,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The word \u0022advertisement\u0022 appears in both cases."},{"start":5755.36,"stop":5760.545,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Henry says intent and purpose. Get your response to that."}]},{"start":5760.545,"stop":5774.06,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5760.545,"stop":5761.835,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" So let me take them in turn."},{"start":5761.835,"stop":5769.715,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I mean, Henry says intent and purpose, but it also says you can infer that sort of compound if you know that the user is going to use it unlawfully."},{"start":5769.715,"stop":5774.06,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And like, you know, I mean, to me, you know, the right way to look at this is consistent with the Re- --"}]},{"start":5774.06,"stop":5776,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5774.06,"stop":5776,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" I\u0027m not sure it says that, but anyway, keep going."}]},{"start":5776,"stop":5782.57,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5776,"stop":5779.66,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" It -- it  --it  -- not maybe in the same line, but I think it says it elsewhere."},{"start":5779.66,"stop":5781.14,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"At least that\u0027s what I take from the opinion."},{"start":5781.14,"stop":5782.57,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Maybe I\u0027m  --maybe I\u0027m misreading it."}]},{"start":5782.57,"stop":5783.15,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5782.57,"stop":5782.82,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Got it."},{"start":5782.82,"stop":5783.15,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Okay. Go."}]},{"start":5783.15,"stop":5865.635,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":37772,"name":"Paul D. Clement","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/paul_d_clement","view_count":0,"last_name":"Clement","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"paul_d_clement"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5783.15,"stop":5793.53,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" But that\u0027s certainly -- that\u0027s certainly why we were relying on the -- sort of the Henry case, because you were providing it knowing it would be misused. So  -- so -- so that\u0027s part of the answer on Henry."},{"start":5793.53,"stop":5801.49,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But, again, then you get to Kalem. And Kalem, yes, like, obviously, if you have inducement cases, that\u0027s what -- that\u0027s what advertising goes to."},{"start":5801.49,"stop":5803.025,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It goes to inducement cases."},{"start":5803.025,"stop":5811.57,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But inducement cases are, you know, historically, if you look at all of the contributory infringement cases, inducement is the smaller subset."},{"start":5811.57,"stop":5820.38,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And the dominant subset is material contribution, where you\u0027re providing material support, substantial assistance, went to  somebody you know that it\u0027s an infringer."},{"start":5820.38,"stop":5827.29,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And that\u0027s why, like, you can get the people who  are just packing and shipping the bootleg records, right?  Like, you know, they don\u0027t, like, care what\u0027s in the box."},{"start":5827.29,"stop":5828.96,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"They\u0027re just  getting paid for doing it."},{"start":5828.96,"stop":5833.2,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"But you still say and  -- and always have said that they are liable."},{"start":5833.2,"stop":5835.79,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That\u0027s -- I mean, that\u0027s certainly the  dominant common law rule."},{"start":5835.79,"stop":5837.935,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"It\u0027s the rule in the trademark context as well."},{"start":5837.935,"stop":5849.325,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So let me just say a word about Kalem. I mean, Kalem, again, you know, is a case where you have, you know, the -- the promoter of the motion picture that\u0027s made from the book, so it\u0027s an easy case."},{"start":5849.325,"stop":5861.155,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And the language they talk about where Justice Holmes goes back to a couple of Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts opinions and talks about indifference, the Court specifically says we don\u0027t have to get into those niceties here."},{"start":5861.155,"stop":5865.635,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"So  what they\u0027re relying on in Kalem, which is why we ignored it, is the purest form of dictum."}]},{"start":5865.635,"stop":5866.795,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":17766,"name":"Brett M. Kavanaugh","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/brett_m_kavanaugh","view_count":0,"last_name":"Kavanaugh","roles":[{"id":3507,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1538802000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"Donald J. Trump","role_title":"Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/3507"}],"thumbnail":{"id":80518,"mime":"image\/png","size":91566,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/filefield_paths\/Kavanaugh-thumb.png"},"length_of_service":2673,"identifier":"brett_m_kavanaugh"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5865.635,"stop":5866.025,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Got it."},{"start":5866.025,"stop":5866.795,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Thank you."}]},{"start":5866.795,"stop":5874.155,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5866.795,"stop":5874.155,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Justice Barrett?  Justice Jackson? Thank you, counsel. Mr. Rosenkranz, rebuttal?"}]}]},{"start":5874.155,"stop":6037.625,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"turns":[{"start":5874.155,"stop":6037.625,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":23018,"name":"E. Joshua Rosenkranz","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/e_joshua_rosenkranz","view_count":0,"last_name":"Rosenkranz","roles":null,"thumbnail":null,"length_of_service":0,"identifier":"e_joshua_rosenkranz"},"text_blocks":[{"start":5874.155,"stop":5877.035,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you, Your Honor."},{"start":5877.035,"stop":5884.22,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Plaintiffs\u0027 test relies on specific known infringers who are certain to keep infringing."},{"start":5884.22,"stop":5899.205,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"If plaintiffs want to bring an action that is based upon specific known infringers who are  --who are certain to keep infringing, they can bring that case under their rule against ISPs."},{"start":5899.205,"stop":5902.12,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"This Court cannot affirm on that basis, though."},{"start":5902.12,"stop":5904.21,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And neither can the courts below."},{"start":5904.21,"stop":5907.12,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Let\u0027s talk about how this case was tried."},{"start":5907.12,"stop":5918.58,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"There is no proof of any specific known infringer that is a human being who  actually did any of the things that some of these hypotheticals spun out."},{"start":5918.58,"stop":5933.56,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Even if you focus on households, there is no way to  disaggregate, precisely for the reason that Justice Gorsuch points out, plaintiffs tried a  case in gross as to 57,000 subscribers."},{"start":5933.56,"stop":5936.35,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"No individual circumstances."},{"start":5936.35,"stop":5946.86,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Plaintiffs  -- plaintiffs never tried to disaggregate in any  way as to the people who they see -- who they claim can sustain this verdict."},{"start":5946.86,"stop":5955.975,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Saying that the DMCA shows that there is liability in a world of uncertainty is not how this Court reads statutes."},{"start":5955.975,"stop":5959.86,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"You can\u0027t infer liability from the blank page."},{"start":5959.86,"stop":5962.875,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"And Congress said not to do that."},{"start":5962.875,"stop":5965.92,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The DMCA is also no panacea."},{"start":5965.92,"stop":5970.555,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"ISPs have no certainty that they will keep the safe harbor."},{"start":5970.555,"stop":5979.005,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"A lay jury decides  whether an ISP has acted reasonably and whether terminations are appropriate."},{"start":5979.005,"stop":5990.695,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Justice Alito asked what is an ISP supposed to do when confronted with a university?  My friend gave an answer, have a conversation."},{"start":5990.695,"stop":6002.035,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"That\u0027s a terrible answer from  the perspective of the company that is trying to figure out what its legal obligations are facing crushing liabilities."},{"start":6002.035,"stop":6003.5,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"I have an answer."},{"start":6003.5,"stop":6010.915,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"When Justice Barrett asked about recourse, the university -- the  --the plaintiffs have recourse."},{"start":6010.915,"stop":6018.895,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"How about a conversation with the ISPs where they talk about how to work out things together?  Maybe  they kick in a little money."},{"start":6018.895,"stop":6031.045,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"Now, they won\u0027t get billion -dollar verdicts, but if they believe that the programs that Cox and others have aren\u0027t satisfactory, they can design better programs and help pay for them."},{"start":6031.045,"stop":6037.625,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"If the Court has no further questions, we respectfully request that the court below be reversed."}]},{"start":6037.625,"stop":6038.73,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"speaker":{"ID":15086,"name":"John G. Roberts, Jr.","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr","view_count":0,"last_name":"Roberts","roles":[{"id":2730,"type":"scotus_justice","date_start":1127970000,"date_end":0,"appointing_president":"George W. Bush","role_title":"Chief Justice of the United States","institution_name":"Supreme Court of the United States","href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/preson_role\/scotus_justice\/2730"}],"thumbnail":{"id":32683,"mime":"image\/png","size":52305,"href":"https:\/\/api.oyez.org\/sites\/default\/files\/images\/people\/john_g_roberts_jr\/john_g_roberts_jr.thumb.png"},"length_of_service":7428,"identifier":"john_g_roberts_jr"},"text_blocks":[{"start":6037.625,"stop":6038.73,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":" Thank you, counsel."},{"start":6038.73,"stop":0,"byte_start":0,"byte_stop":0,"text":"The case is submitted."}]}]}]},"public_note":null,"unavailable":false,"damaged":false,"display_title":null}